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Examining it critically, we see (in addition to it clearly referring to the northern border) a couple of claims that suggest actual observation: people "lying

Examining it critically, we see (in addition to it clearly referring to the northern border) a couple of claims that suggest actual observation: people "lying in the sun near the river in the spring awaiting the return of energy", and "women would reportedly illegally cross the river to prostitute themselves in China before the winter to obtain rice to survive." The river might be the Yalu or Tumen, and if the latter occurred, the women could quite plausibly be sources of additional information. So yes, it is anecdotal evidence, but not, IMHO, entirely implausible at that. > Did he conduct a census of North Korean villages beyond the border... Are you consistently as skeptical as you are in this case? For example, have you personally verified that the earth is round (or flat, according to what you believe it to be?)

the_af 6y ago
> Are you consistently as skeptical as you are in this case? For example, have you personally verified that the earth is round I am consistently skeptical about outrageous claims, particularly in ideologically charged contexts. Or try to be, anyway -- I'm not a robot and I'm of course subject to bias, like all humans. For example, I dislike Trump but if I read something truly outrageous about him I tend to be skeptical about it. In Spanish we call it "avoid buying rotten fish", i.e. do not believe any stories about your hated enemy, just because they sound like something he would do, until you can have at least some degree of verification. Because sometimes those stories are planted maliciously or are plain wrong. In the case of North Korea there is the problem that the country is so secretive -- unlike the US with Trump -- that it's truly hard to get confirmation of just about anything, so the rumors fly easily. If something sounds true about North Korea, then it must be true! That the Earth is round is non-controversial. I don't see how it's wrong to double or triple check sociopolitical claims though. I do believe North Korea is a hereditary dictatorship and that their people suffer, in case you were wondering. This doesn't mean I will automatically believe any claim about that country.
- mannykannot 6y ago
  > I am consistently skeptical about outrageous claims. You have not presented a case for this particular claim to be regarded as outrageous. Unless you do, then your attitude to such claims is beside the point here.
  - the_af 6y ago
    I believe that "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story, with some of the markings of an exaggeration. Does it make it automatically untrue? No. Do I believe many North Koreans live in really harsh conditions? Yes. But this particular tale does seem too horrific to believe without some sort of confirmation beyond hearsay. All it lacks is some cannibalism to make it the perfect horror story about North Korea.
    - mannykannot 6y ago
      > All it lacks is some cannibalism... If you could have resisted the temptation to embellish, you would have made a quite reasonable point - though seeking collective shelter in caves in a harsh winter does not seem too far-fetched to me. It's not like humanity has no history of doing this! While famine is thankfully no longer a part of many peoples' experience, it has been for most of humanity's existence and still is for some. As for ideological motivation, this anecdote is being presented in the context of an anthropological claim about early human behavior, not about North Korea or communism. I tend to trust OP's judgment as to whether he was being strung along by the driver for ideological reasons.
    - julianmarq 6y ago
      "Some people living under an oppressive regime starving and dying during the winter" is hardly outrageous. It's been true pretty much as long as human civilizations have been a thing. For some, even the winter part has been optional. So I'm confused about the part you don't believe, is it that they went up to the mountains to do it?
      - yorwba 6y ago

the_af 6y ago

> Are you consistently as skeptical as you are in this case? For example, have you personally verified that the earth is round I am consistently skeptical about outrageous claims, particularly in ideologically charged contexts. Or try to be, anyway -- I'm not a robot and I'm of course subject to bias, like all humans. For example, I dislike Trump but if I read something truly outrageous about him I tend to be skeptical about it. In Spanish we call it "avoid buying rotten fish", i.e. do not believe any stories about your hated enemy, just because they sound like something he would do, until you can have at least some degree of verification. Because sometimes those stories are planted maliciously or are plain wrong. In the case of North Korea there is the problem that the country is so secretive -- unlike the US with Trump -- that it's truly hard to get confirmation of just about anything, so the rumors fly easily. If something sounds true about North Korea, then it must be true! That the Earth is round is non-controversial. I don't see how it's wrong to double or triple check sociopolitical claims though. I do believe North Korea is a hereditary dictatorship and that their people suffer, in case you were wondering. This doesn't mean I will automatically believe any claim about that country.

mannykannot 6y ago
> I am consistently skeptical about outrageous claims. You have not presented a case for this particular claim to be regarded as outrageous. Unless you do, then your attitude to such claims is beside the point here.
- the_af 6y ago
  I believe that "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story, with some of the markings of an exaggeration. Does it make it automatically untrue? No. Do I believe many North Koreans live in really harsh conditions? Yes. But this particular tale does seem too horrific to believe without some sort of confirmation beyond hearsay. All it lacks is some cannibalism to make it the perfect horror story about North Korea.
  - mannykannot 6y ago
    > All it lacks is some cannibalism... If you could have resisted the temptation to embellish, you would have made a quite reasonable point - though seeking collective shelter in caves in a harsh winter does not seem too far-fetched to me. It's not like humanity has no history of doing this! While famine is thankfully no longer a part of many peoples' experience, it has been for most of humanity's existence and still is for some. As for ideological motivation, this anecdote is being presented in the context of an anthropological claim about early human behavior, not about North Korea or communism. I tend to trust OP's judgment as to whether he was being strung along by the driver for ideological reasons.
  - julianmarq 6y ago
    "Some people living under an oppressive regime starving and dying during the winter" is hardly outrageous. It's been true pretty much as long as human civilizations have been a thing. For some, even the winter part has been optional. So I'm confused about the part you don't believe, is it that they went up to the mountains to do it?
    - yorwba 6y ago