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No offense, but your take on social attitudes about porn is really strange and pretty misogynistic. > “ Some feel like porn gives unearned satisfaction to youn

by gbrown 6y ago

No offense, but your take on social attitudes about porn is really strange and pretty misogynistic. > “ Some feel like porn gives unearned satisfaction to young men, a virtual substitute they don't have to work for.” What? Maybe extremist groups like the proud boys, but I’ve literally never heard this objection. People tend to worry more about socialization and the harmful psychological effects porn can have on people. > “ Others may feel camgirls are collecting undeserved money, they don't do actual noble valuable work, just cash in based on their genetics and immorality.” Again, thats an extremist misogynistic viewpoint. The real objections I’ve heard concern the exploitation of the industry and the lack of protections for workers. All the worldviews you describe are hyper-conservative, and don’t at all describe society as a whole.

bonoboTP 6y ago
> What? Maybe extremist groups like the proud boys, but I’ve literally never heard this objection I meant this part as quite analogous to the drug debate. People dislike drug comsumers because they feel drugs are a cheat: you get unearned pleasure without having to work for it. You sidestep your noble duties of working and earning the fruits of your labours by short-circuiting and hooking your brain directly on to pleasure juices. I think -- said explicitly or not -- a lot of the same sentiment underlies the anti-porn stance. That men can get (part of) the pleasure without the work. The underlying idea is that without porn, men would be forced to rather work on themselves, improve themselves, mature and provide value to society to attract female attention etc. Just like the (misguided or not) idea that without drugs all the junkies would suddenly go take on a decent 9-5 job and climb the ladder like one is supposed to and indulge in buying stuff with their hard earned money. Just outlining a narrative, not that I believe this simplified story, just that I think these patterns are lurking there, it's not merely about showing bodies and genitals due to some irrational arbitrary taboo. > Again, thats an extremist misogynistic viewpoint. The real objections I’ve heard concern the exploitation of the industry and the lack of protections for workers. What people say in public to look good is different from what they act out. Despite all the liberal attitudes in western europe for example, if you go to a brothel in Amsterdam, you won't see rich Dutch girls self-actualizing, or middle-class Norwegian girls expressing their empowered sexuality, but poor Bulgarians, Ukraininans, Hungarians, Roma, etc. Sure there are exceptions. But overall even most of the enlightened liberal Western European parents don't actually want their daughter to become a pornstar or a prostitute. For reasons approximating my previous comment -- that they are worth more than their mere bodily appearance, etc.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  > People dislike drug comsumers because they feel drugs are a cheat: you get unearned pleasure without having to work for it. While I can certainly imagine someone feeling this way, I've never thought this and I've never heard anyone express this perspective. I think you may be imagining too hard.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    It's interesting to hear because I've been assuming this is obviously why people don't like people taking drugs. That it will drive kids away from productive stuff like studying because the joy of achieving something like academic or athletic success can't keep up with the bliss that drugs provide. Why else? Perhaps you mean that drugs physically harm you, like you will become a methhead or crackhead with your teeth falling out etc? But that requires really sliding down the deep end... Perhaps I was raised differently. As a kid, my parents told me upfront that drugs are awesome and people do them because they are really enjoyable not because junkies are evil mutant monsters who like to destroy their lives, and that the awesomeness is the danger in them, that they are empty enjoyment without deeper achievements etc. This was in contrast to school finger wagging lectures, which just said that drugs are baaad and you must learn to say NO or you will destroy your health and life and drugs are poison and terrible and will eat your flesh (slides showing the effects of krokodil, and shady people in alleyways). Which just confused me because why such a big deal about poison that destroys your life? Why would anyone do this if it's so straightforwardly bad?
    - polishdude20 6y ago
      I think the main issue I have with drugs is when they have the possibility of harming others. I don't mean to say all drugs and all doses have this effect. There are drugs and doses that can cause someone to go crazy and hurt people or damage property. In the other hand, you also have a feeling of this person not being a productive member of society. My tax dollars go to fixing this persons' mistakes. I wouldn't complain if my tax dollars went to properly rehabilitating these people though.
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by gbrown 6y ago

bonoboTP 6y ago

> What? Maybe extremist groups like the proud boys, but I’ve literally never heard this objection I meant this part as quite analogous to the drug debate. People dislike drug comsumers because they feel drugs are a cheat: you get unearned pleasure without having to work for it. You sidestep your noble duties of working and earning the fruits of your labours by short-circuiting and hooking your brain directly on to pleasure juices. I think -- said explicitly or not -- a lot of the same sentiment underlies the anti-porn stance. That men can get (part of) the pleasure without the work. The underlying idea is that without porn, men would be forced to rather work on themselves, improve themselves, mature and provide value to society to attract female attention etc. Just like the (misguided or not) idea that without drugs all the junkies would suddenly go take on a decent 9-5 job and climb the ladder like one is supposed to and indulge in buying stuff with their hard earned money. Just outlining a narrative, not that I believe this simplified story, just that I think these patterns are lurking there, it's not merely about showing bodies and genitals due to some irrational arbitrary taboo. > Again, thats an extremist misogynistic viewpoint. The real objections I’ve heard concern the exploitation of the industry and the lack of protections for workers. What people say in public to look good is different from what they act out. Despite all the liberal attitudes in western europe for example, if you go to a brothel in Amsterdam, you won't see rich Dutch girls self-actualizing, or middle-class Norwegian girls expressing their empowered sexuality, but poor Bulgarians, Ukraininans, Hungarians, Roma, etc. Sure there are exceptions. But overall even most of the enlightened liberal Western European parents don't actually want their daughter to become a pornstar or a prostitute. For reasons approximating my previous comment -- that they are worth more than their mere bodily appearance, etc.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
> People dislike drug comsumers because they feel drugs are a cheat: you get unearned pleasure without having to work for it. While I can certainly imagine someone feeling this way, I've never thought this and I've never heard anyone express this perspective. I think you may be imagining too hard.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  It's interesting to hear because I've been assuming this is obviously why people don't like people taking drugs. That it will drive kids away from productive stuff like studying because the joy of achieving something like academic or athletic success can't keep up with the bliss that drugs provide. Why else? Perhaps you mean that drugs physically harm you, like you will become a methhead or crackhead with your teeth falling out etc? But that requires really sliding down the deep end... Perhaps I was raised differently. As a kid, my parents told me upfront that drugs are awesome and people do them because they are really enjoyable not because junkies are evil mutant monsters who like to destroy their lives, and that the awesomeness is the danger in them, that they are empty enjoyment without deeper achievements etc. This was in contrast to school finger wagging lectures, which just said that drugs are baaad and you must learn to say NO or you will destroy your health and life and drugs are poison and terrible and will eat your flesh (slides showing the effects of krokodil, and shady people in alleyways). Which just confused me because why such a big deal about poison that destroys your life? Why would anyone do this if it's so straightforwardly bad?
  - polishdude20 6y ago
    I think the main issue I have with drugs is when they have the possibility of harming others. I don't mean to say all drugs and all doses have this effect. There are drugs and doses that can cause someone to go crazy and hurt people or damage property. In the other hand, you also have a feeling of this person not being a productive member of society. My tax dollars go to fixing this persons' mistakes. I wouldn't complain if my tax dollars went to properly rehabilitating these people though.

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