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Why would defector accounts be biased? They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. ... and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh

Why would defector accounts be biased? They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. ... and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. Additionally, the number of NKers defectors in China is high - they aren't rare.

the_af 6y ago
> Why would defector accounts be biased? Experience with defectors from other countries, such as the former Soviet Union, shows they sometimes tell the truth, they sometimes tell false or exaggerated stories, and they sometimes tell half-truths. I don't know why North Korean defectors would be different. > and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. This specific claim is about people going to die in droves to caves, not just about harsh authoritarianism or extreme poverty. That's why it must be considered skeptically -- because it seems just like the kind of thing we're prone to believing about North Korea given other news, but this is not enough to make it true. And once it gets repeated uncritically, it becomes the "common sense truth".
- mtnGoat 6y ago
  Except going into caves is a valid survival strategy because caves are naturally warm. If you had no heat at the surface, going subterranean would make sense to sell warmth. They weren't going into caves to die, quite the contrary, they were going into the caves to survive.
throwaway2245 6y ago
> They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. ... and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. Defectors won't know any of this. It's expected that some would exaggerate unverifiable details, to ensure their safety. That wouldn't diminish what they actually went through.
mattm 6y ago
Look at Shin Dong-hyuk's story. I read his book "Escape from Camp 14" several years ago and then afterwards came to find out that a lot of it was misrepresented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk
jmhakala 6y ago
> Why would defector accounts be biased? People love shocking stories, so there can be real financial benefit on making up the wildest things up and then selling your story to media or publisher.
firethief 6y ago
Humans are not so logical. They are also known to be much worse than they think at reporting their own experiences[1], and prone to shared delusions, especially under stress[2]. There are always wild rumors under circumstances where reliable information is scarce[3]. 1: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-... 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness#In_history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness#In_... 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin_was_a_mushroom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin_was_a_mushroom
ngokevin 6y ago
Same reason why employees leave bad reviews on Glassdoor for former employers. Also to fit into their new environments. Everyone loves to hate on the enemy country. You might see that in the US with some Chinese Americans online, easier to fit in. Want upvotes, just go to Reddit, say "i'm chinese and eff china". Plug in North Korea and get more sympathy.
varispeed 6y ago
Some people have this trait, when they see nothing is being done to help with their issue, they exaggerate or even lie to make someone in power to change things do something. Always take such stories with a grain of salt and try to verify with as many sources as possible.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
> Why would defector accounts be biased? They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. Defector accounts are actually often inaccurate or exaggerated. North Korean testimonies often fall apart: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-k... One of the incentives is that they make money, or gain a visa, through such testimonies. Back in the days when China was poor, many Chinese defectors or political refugees were actually economical refugees. They made up exaggerated stories in order to get a visa on the grounds of political asylum.

the_af 6y ago

> Why would defector accounts be biased? Experience with defectors from other countries, such as the former Soviet Union, shows they sometimes tell the truth, they sometimes tell false or exaggerated stories, and they sometimes tell half-truths. I don't know why North Korean defectors would be different. > and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. This specific claim is about people going to die in droves to caves, not just about harsh authoritarianism or extreme poverty. That's why it must be considered skeptically -- because it seems just like the kind of thing we're prone to believing about North Korea given other news, but this is not enough to make it true. And once it gets repeated uncritically, it becomes the "common sense truth".

mtnGoat 6y ago
Except going into caves is a valid survival strategy because caves are naturally warm. If you had no heat at the surface, going subterranean would make sense to sell warmth. They weren't going into caves to die, quite the contrary, they were going into the caves to survive.

throwaway2245 6y ago

> They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. ... and their accounts of starvation, extreme poverty, and harsh authoritarianism all support one another. Defectors won't know any of this. It's expected that some would exaggerate unverifiable details, to ensure their safety. That wouldn't diminish what they actually went through.

mattm 6y ago

Look at Shin Dong-hyuk's story. I read his book "Escape from Camp 14" several years ago and then afterwards came to find out that a lot of it was misrepresented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk

jmhakala 6y ago

> Why would defector accounts be biased? People love shocking stories, so there can be real financial benefit on making up the wildest things up and then selling your story to media or publisher.

firethief 6y ago

Humans are not so logical. They are also known to be much worse than they think at reporting their own experiences[1], and prone to shared delusions, especially under stress[2]. There are always wild rumors under circumstances where reliable information is scarce[3]. 1: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-... 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness#In_history https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness#In_... 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin_was_a_mushroom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin_was_a_mushroom

ngokevin 6y ago

Same reason why employees leave bad reviews on Glassdoor for former employers. Also to fit into their new environments. Everyone loves to hate on the enemy country. You might see that in the US with some Chinese Americans online, easier to fit in. Want upvotes, just go to Reddit, say "i'm chinese and eff china". Plug in North Korea and get more sympathy.

varispeed 6y ago

Some people have this trait, when they see nothing is being done to help with their issue, they exaggerate or even lie to make someone in power to change things do something. Always take such stories with a grain of salt and try to verify with as many sources as possible.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

> Why would defector accounts be biased? They have little to gain by exaggerating their plight. Defector accounts are actually often inaccurate or exaggerated. North Korean testimonies often fall apart: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-k... One of the incentives is that they make money, or gain a visa, through such testimonies. Back in the days when China was poor, many Chinese defectors or political refugees were actually economical refugees. They made up exaggerated stories in order to get a visa on the grounds of political asylum.