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This feminist take was definitely uncalled for in this article. The author's bias about how the women, _who are actually getting monetarily compensated_, are th

This feminist take was definitely uncalled for in this article. The author's bias about how the women, _who are actually getting monetarily compensated_, are the victims completely misses the costs to the purchasers, who are almost all men, in terms of their money and the neurologic changes that such sex work consumption has. Having the "algorithm" suggesting and enticing these men back to buy more subscriptions / pics or however it works on these things is just as much a negative side effect as the women experience in social stigma.

ahelwer 6y ago
Not really? I can't think of the last time a prominent newspaper named & shamed a random working man for spending money on porn, whereas that happened with the NY Post and a paramedic with an onlyfans just last week. Your view of reality is wildly distorted.
- Fargren 6y ago
  Poe's Law is a terrible thing. I assume what you are replying to is sarcasm, because I can't fathom it being earnest.
  - computerphage 6y ago
    I don't know enough to decide with certainty if the post in question is right, but it definitely seems earnest. I believe the poster sincerely holds those beliefs.
    - Fargren 6y ago
      People seriously believe being advertised at is "just as much a negative" as the stigma from being a porn actress? I have no appreciation for the advertising industry, but this is hard for me to believe.
      - ALittleLight 6y ago
        I don't know about "just as much". Negatives like these are hard to quantify and therefore hard to compare. What the men are paying for on OnlyFans is a pseudo-connection or a fake relationship. This strikes me as being emotionally, sexually, or romantically manipulative or exploitative. Of course the men choose to contribute but the incentive structure is for the women to foster a sense of intimacy or connection so they can exploit it for cash. It's a voluntary association, but it doesn't seem like a morally neutral or harmless association to me. This is not to say that the harm men face from exploitation is greater than the harm that women face - or that women don't also face this phenomenon, but just that it is also a harmful byproduct of the service.
      - GoblinSlayer 6y ago
        I think what was meant is a belief that porn addiction causes brain damage (to the addict).
- hhjinks 6y ago
  Nowhere in the comment you're replying to is it stated or even implied that men suffer a significant social stigma from consuming porn, nor that women DON'T suffer a social stigma for producing it. The viewpoint you describe is certainly twisted, but it hasn't actually been expressed by anyone.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  > named & shamed a random working man for spending money on porn How would they find out?
lumberjack 6y ago
For the record no real feminist would publish this horseshit. It is one thing to advocate for better conditions for sex workers. It is another thing entirely to pimp young girls on the internet, and to even equate the two while pretending to be a feminist is just despicable.
- Anon1096 6y ago
  How is making an OnlyFans account, where the content creator is completely in control of their actions, in any way comparable to pimping? There isn't even a "pimp" in this scenario. The women have 100% agency in when, how, and what to post. To me that does seem pretty liberating.
  - salmon30salmon 6y ago
    You are assuming that the creator of the OnlyFans site is not under duress in any way. You are also assuming that the creator and maintainer of the site is the same person who is featured on the site. Exploitation of women (and men) can happen even in the most seemingly egalitarian of communities.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      Almost everybody who has a job to make money is under duress. Do you think the garbage collector just does that job because it's their hobby?
    - mbrodersen 6y ago
      Millions of men and woman are exploited every day doing regular factory/office work. Factory workers risk their limbs and lives every day they go to work. So you obviously want to stop that as well right? Or if not: Why not?
- Chris2048 6y ago
  > no real feminist and yet this gets expressed all the time under the feminist banner. Either real feminists have no control over the brand, or it's been hijacked.
klunger 6y ago
Wow. Are you really saying that the men who consume porn are equally victimized as actual sex workers, because of an algorithm? In the sense that algorithms do nudge our behaviour in insidious ways, addicted consumers of porn can be seen as victims of a sort. But, to suggest that the social stigma associated with porn usage is equal, much less anywhere near approaching, or in the same order of magnitude of the social stigma that sex workers face, is just so incredibly wrong.
- witherk 6y ago
  I think you're right if you're only putting 1 sex worker and 1 porn addict on the scale, but I would imagine that for every sex worker there could be 100 porn addicts watching them, the math gets more tricky.
  - klunger 6y ago
    This is an interesting point. The problem, I think, is that as individuals, we only have feelings based on our own experiences. So, perhaps in an aggregate sense, there is more suffering of all the men men who are slightly stigmatized because they watch too much porn. But, none of them feel this as acutely as the single single sex worker who can 1) probably never get a more "legitimate" job again 2) may not be there of her own free will (yes, even if she is getting paid) 3) may not have any support network because her family has cut her off because of what she does (this is common).
    - mbrodersen 6y ago
      If I understand it correctly, porn actors are adults, working under signed, legal contracts that specify, in extreme explicit details, exactly what they will be doing during a shoot. If they were actually forced to do it, then it would be a criminal act of rape, something that would very quickly bring down producers responsible for it. Do you have any evidence that porn actors in general are forced to work?
      - lanternfish 6y ago
dragonwriter 6y ago
> The author's bias about how the women, _who are actually getting monetarily compensated_, are the victims Being monetarily compensated doesn't prevent being a victim, which is the basis of all labor protection legislation beyond “workers must get paid at least a token amount”.
- mbrodersen 6y ago
  If I understand it correctly, the sex workers are adults who has signed contracts to do a specific job for a specific amount of $ The same as a factory worker who might end up loosing their health or lives doing their job. What is the difference exactly?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > What is the difference exactly? The difference is that when widespread systemic labor abuses are revealed in a manufacturing industry, people who aren't members of the capitalist class or spokespeople for the firms in the industry have no problem recognizing that the factory workers are victims.
imbnwa 6y ago
No one put a gun to that guy's head, society won't even ask him any questions about nor assume what he does in his personal time, whereas that same politeness doesn't extend to sex workers. That's just the tip of the iceberg as far as the difference between these two goes, as I see it
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Well if we're going to go this route, no one put a gun to the girl's head either. She just didn't want to work night shift at 7/11 for $10-$15 an hour. In Fort Worth, I've seen night shift "supervisors" for the convenience store where I usually stop for gas being offered $18-$22, starting salary. With 1 year experience. Yes, that's a shitty job, on a shitty shift, and the pay is nothing to write home about at $36,000 - $44,000 a year, but for someone with nothing more than a high school degree, and clearly a tremendous lack of applicable skills, it isn't terrible. If these women want to do porn instead of slaving away at Walmart, hey, more power to them. I don't begrudge you your choice, but don't act like there's no alternative. Entirely too many people make the claim that "there are no jobs for me!" when what they mean is, "There aren't any jobs that I want to do, I'm not supposed to be a janitor, I'm supposed to be a TikTok star!!" That's the big fucking lie our society has told people for the past 40+ years. Most of us, even most of us in high positions in respected companies, are easily replaceable cogs. A lot of people were very concerned about Apple's future when Steve Jobs died. Looking at the M1 chip, it seems like Tim Cook and Apple will be just fine.
  - thatcat 6y ago
    Yea no one wants to work at walmart and no one wants to shop at walmart, but hey look at how many walmarts there are. When people complain that there are no jobs they mean there are no meaningful careers, not that there aren't enough walmarts to work at.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      Yeah, according to Keynes we were all supposed to have 15 hour work weeks by now... makes you wonder what exactly went wrong.

ahelwer 6y ago

Not really? I can't think of the last time a prominent newspaper named & shamed a random working man for spending money on porn, whereas that happened with the NY Post and a paramedic with an onlyfans just last week. Your view of reality is wildly distorted.

Fargren 6y ago
Poe's Law is a terrible thing. I assume what you are replying to is sarcasm, because I can't fathom it being earnest.
- computerphage 6y ago
  I don't know enough to decide with certainty if the post in question is right, but it definitely seems earnest. I believe the poster sincerely holds those beliefs.
  - Fargren 6y ago
    People seriously believe being advertised at is "just as much a negative" as the stigma from being a porn actress? I have no appreciation for the advertising industry, but this is hard for me to believe.
    - ALittleLight 6y ago
      I don't know about "just as much". Negatives like these are hard to quantify and therefore hard to compare. What the men are paying for on OnlyFans is a pseudo-connection or a fake relationship. This strikes me as being emotionally, sexually, or romantically manipulative or exploitative. Of course the men choose to contribute but the incentive structure is for the women to foster a sense of intimacy or connection so they can exploit it for cash. It's a voluntary association, but it doesn't seem like a morally neutral or harmless association to me. This is not to say that the harm men face from exploitation is greater than the harm that women face - or that women don't also face this phenomenon, but just that it is also a harmful byproduct of the service.
    - GoblinSlayer 6y ago
      I think what was meant is a belief that porn addiction causes brain damage (to the addict).
hhjinks 6y ago
Nowhere in the comment you're replying to is it stated or even implied that men suffer a significant social stigma from consuming porn, nor that women DON'T suffer a social stigma for producing it. The viewpoint you describe is certainly twisted, but it hasn't actually been expressed by anyone.
Chris2048 6y ago
> named & shamed a random working man for spending money on porn How would they find out?

lumberjack 6y ago

For the record no real feminist would publish this horseshit. It is one thing to advocate for better conditions for sex workers. It is another thing entirely to pimp young girls on the internet, and to even equate the two while pretending to be a feminist is just despicable.

Anon1096 6y ago
How is making an OnlyFans account, where the content creator is completely in control of their actions, in any way comparable to pimping? There isn't even a "pimp" in this scenario. The women have 100% agency in when, how, and what to post. To me that does seem pretty liberating.
- salmon30salmon 6y ago
  You are assuming that the creator of the OnlyFans site is not under duress in any way. You are also assuming that the creator and maintainer of the site is the same person who is featured on the site. Exploitation of women (and men) can happen even in the most seemingly egalitarian of communities.
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    Almost everybody who has a job to make money is under duress. Do you think the garbage collector just does that job because it's their hobby?
  - mbrodersen 6y ago
    Millions of men and woman are exploited every day doing regular factory/office work. Factory workers risk their limbs and lives every day they go to work. So you obviously want to stop that as well right? Or if not: Why not?
Chris2048 6y ago
> no real feminist and yet this gets expressed all the time under the feminist banner. Either real feminists have no control over the brand, or it's been hijacked.

klunger 6y ago

Wow. Are you really saying that the men who consume porn are equally victimized as actual sex workers, because of an algorithm? In the sense that algorithms do nudge our behaviour in insidious ways, addicted consumers of porn can be seen as victims of a sort. But, to suggest that the social stigma associated with porn usage is equal, much less anywhere near approaching, or in the same order of magnitude of the social stigma that sex workers face, is just so incredibly wrong.

witherk 6y ago
I think you're right if you're only putting 1 sex worker and 1 porn addict on the scale, but I would imagine that for every sex worker there could be 100 porn addicts watching them, the math gets more tricky.
- klunger 6y ago
  This is an interesting point. The problem, I think, is that as individuals, we only have feelings based on our own experiences. So, perhaps in an aggregate sense, there is more suffering of all the men men who are slightly stigmatized because they watch too much porn. But, none of them feel this as acutely as the single single sex worker who can 1) probably never get a more "legitimate" job again 2) may not be there of her own free will (yes, even if she is getting paid) 3) may not have any support network because her family has cut her off because of what she does (this is common).
  - mbrodersen 6y ago
    If I understand it correctly, porn actors are adults, working under signed, legal contracts that specify, in extreme explicit details, exactly what they will be doing during a shoot. If they were actually forced to do it, then it would be a criminal act of rape, something that would very quickly bring down producers responsible for it. Do you have any evidence that porn actors in general are forced to work?
    - lanternfish 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> The author's bias about how the women, _who are actually getting monetarily compensated_, are the victims Being monetarily compensated doesn't prevent being a victim, which is the basis of all labor protection legislation beyond “workers must get paid at least a token amount”.

mbrodersen 6y ago
If I understand it correctly, the sex workers are adults who has signed contracts to do a specific job for a specific amount of $ The same as a factory worker who might end up loosing their health or lives doing their job. What is the difference exactly?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > What is the difference exactly? The difference is that when widespread systemic labor abuses are revealed in a manufacturing industry, people who aren't members of the capitalist class or spokespeople for the firms in the industry have no problem recognizing that the factory workers are victims.

imbnwa 6y ago

No one put a gun to that guy's head, society won't even ask him any questions about nor assume what he does in his personal time, whereas that same politeness doesn't extend to sex workers. That's just the tip of the iceberg as far as the difference between these two goes, as I see it

cbozeman 6y ago
Well if we're going to go this route, no one put a gun to the girl's head either. She just didn't want to work night shift at 7/11 for $10-$15 an hour. In Fort Worth, I've seen night shift "supervisors" for the convenience store where I usually stop for gas being offered $18-$22, starting salary. With 1 year experience. Yes, that's a shitty job, on a shitty shift, and the pay is nothing to write home about at $36,000 - $44,000 a year, but for someone with nothing more than a high school degree, and clearly a tremendous lack of applicable skills, it isn't terrible. If these women want to do porn instead of slaving away at Walmart, hey, more power to them. I don't begrudge you your choice, but don't act like there's no alternative. Entirely too many people make the claim that "there are no jobs for me!" when what they mean is, "There aren't any jobs that I want to do, I'm not supposed to be a janitor, I'm supposed to be a TikTok star!!" That's the big fucking lie our society has told people for the past 40+ years. Most of us, even most of us in high positions in respected companies, are easily replaceable cogs. A lot of people were very concerned about Apple's future when Steve Jobs died. Looking at the M1 chip, it seems like Tim Cook and Apple will be just fine.
- thatcat 6y ago
  Yea no one wants to work at walmart and no one wants to shop at walmart, but hey look at how many walmarts there are. When people complain that there are no jobs they mean there are no meaningful careers, not that there aren't enough walmarts to work at.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    Yeah, according to Keynes we were all supposed to have 15 hour work weeks by now... makes you wonder what exactly went wrong.