7 ms·

We can sell our bodies to be destroyed in coal mines, sitting at desks, smash them up building homes, abusing them in sports, catch a Covid-19 bug... Puritan e

We can sell our bodies to be destroyed in coal mines, sitting at desks, smash them up building homes, abusing them in sports, catch a Covid-19 bug... Puritan economics seem perfectly accepting of destroying ourselves. Willingly sell self for pleasure though? Psh Only if the pleasure comes from that new gadget or next airfare (which is destroying the environment but so it is)

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Willingly sell self for pleasure though? Psh Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to. It was entirely eye-opening to see how sad it is when you're talking with a young women trying to sell their bitcoin at 2am to pay for rent before they get evicted and have enough to buy baby formula and diapers. The US is so backwards, they can show the most depraved forms of violence and cruelty imaginable and call it entertainment with out batting an eye, but showing the Human form in any sexual manner is somehow cause for alarm and deemed perverse and promoting rape culture if you believe some of the most absurd in Society. Whereas in Europe and Asia nudity is completely accepted in many public areas, and sex work is tolerated, legal and is just another, albeit uncommon, thing people do for a living and nothing more. As for this article, its showing how pervasive the Panopticon this form of the Internet is and underscore the idea that 'you are the product' mantra about 'free' services. We really need a different Internet already. Porn is and will always be a big component of the Internet, but much like the antics you had when you were an adolescent you soon realize their is much more value in other things and move on.
- what2build 6y ago
  People are hardly working for Google because they want to. People are hardly working in slaughter houses and coal mines because they want to. Feminists I know are selling themselves because they like sex, and controlling their bodies time economy is their choice. One would think on this forum that it’s a gradient of statistics and not black and white anecdotes would be more obvious. Exploitation of minors is one thing. Though, I do not see many folks lifting a finger over child political prisoners in rancid cages. So I’m left wondering if exploitation is the real issue or the sex part given cultural norms.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > Feminists I know are selling themselves because they like sex, and controlling their bodies time economy is their choice. Not to dwell on this so much, as my observations of sex workers were those who did it for need rather then pleasure, but what part of 'selling yourself' is empowering? I mean if you like something, like a hobby, you usually don't seek to monetize it if you want keep enjoying it. It seems to cheapen the activity as you start applying different metric than sheer joy as the only goal, and instead look an things through an PNL lens. In fact introducing these metrics is almost always a net negative activity--now in my 30s I've turned almost all of my hobbies, skills and interests into a professional career to the detriment of my pleasure towards it and suffered because I bought into the fake adage of 'never having to work a day' for most of my Life. Whereas it's now become the new normal to view 'feminism' as a preferential distortion of facts and realities in favour of biased outcomes that don't hold up to any scrutiny. I have no problem with sex workers, I've treated them all with the same respect I would with customers in the professional or corporate sectors I've been in and they always remarked how differently I was because of that. But, the truth is I hold almost near disdain for social media 'thots' (male or female) who exploit mentally weak and vulnerable people into giving them money in exchange of attention/sexual exploitation and exploiting Human vulnerability and a need for connection. I think the same applies to these 'feminists' prostitutes and their false narrative because of the obvious level of hypocrisy behind it and its motives is one of obvious extractive relationships with people based on self-interest, vulgar opportunism and having the social inertia to carry on forcing people to buy into that view. > Exploitation of minors is one thing. Though, I do not see many folks lifting a finger over child political prisoners in rancid cages. So I’m left wondering if exploitation is the real issue or the sex part given cultural norms. The Catholic Church still exists, start with questioning why that den of pedophilia is institutionalized in modern Society despite the countless amounts of child rape and exempt from taxation before you go any further. Then you'll see why things like the Epstein-Maxwell sex trafficking of minors is more common than one would care to think. Which again ties to the what I said above about exploitation of vulnerable people.
    - what2build 6y ago
      How you can connect a handful of (some college educated) women I know putting their body where they want with men they pick as being anything like a billionaires sex cabal drugging and buying kids from poor parents are at all similar is some Machiavellian effort. Bravo. But since we’re on the subject; maybe put less value into financial trade which is the contemporary value store propping up the exploitation of billionaires. Perhaps buy fewer gadgets that prop up the economy they grift on from the masses agency. Perhaps be more for raising taxes to distribute wealth to communities that can use it if you’re that worried. Above all perhaps avoid centralizing authority over agency in private power. A pattern we keep buying into as a species only to realize it rather makes things worse for the majority. Put your agency into something that tackles artificial social problems (stock values, disposable widgets sold!, not enough money for M4A or community uplift in poor areas) instead of (sad as it may be) human issues that have existed forever, and there’s precious little we can do about it. Even if billionaire sex cabals vanish, are you going to scour the world seeking out every tribal instance? Or are you simply reaching for acceptable semantics from your perspective? In other words: walk the walk when it comes to pushing back against immoral behavior as you see it. Semantic battles here over specific instances are self congratulatory and empty if we’ll simply equivocate away structural changes.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  > Whereas in Europe and Asia nudity is completely accepted in many public areas, and sex work is tolerated, legal and is just another, albeit uncommon, thing people do for a living and nothing more This is way overemphasized on the Internet by people who don't have much experience with living in Europe. It's similar to Europeans imagining that in the US it's an everyday thing that people are dying left and right because they can't pay for an emergency ambulance to take them to the hospital. Nudity may be less stigmatized than in America, but prostitution is not something normal people as just another job that they'd be happy if their daughter chose it. On the surface, people may seem more tolerant of it, but privately they definitely act differently. Why do we see so few Dutch and Swedish and Danish emancipated free empowered women self-actualize through porn work? Why is it always poorer Eastern European Czech, Polish, Hungarian, Ukrainian, Russian women at the top of porn star lists?
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > Nudity may be less stigmatized than in America, but prostitution is not something normal people as just another job that they'd be happy if their daughter chose it. On the surface, people may seem more tolerant of it, but privately they definitely act differently. When I was in my last year of apprenticeship in Switzerland I managed one the estates of the owner's homes for most of the year while they worked in Bern, which included the investment homes they had in Zurich and in Lussane. It was where generational wealthy people parked their money, guess who our neighbors were? High class Swiss escorts, I know this because I met them and asked to keep an eye on things while I was away and gave them vegetables from our farm in exchange as a good gesture of will. I lived in S. Germany in what was once Ag land but had been urbanized for wealthy 'Green minded' Germans, where prostitution is once again legal. I got chatted up on the train a few times only to find out (by my then German-Anglo fiance) it was a meet and greet tactic they use to get them into the brothels and is apparently common to use on foreigners and university students. They were all German not one was Eastern European, which to be honest is what I'm more physically attracted to than most Western Europeans. I can go on here about working Summers in Croatia, and Italy that included catering to nude sunbathing crowds in camp sites and resorts which are frequented mainly by other Western Europeans, but suffice it to say: I was born and raised in CA, but I've lived and worked in Europe long enough to stand by my claims and spent my Summers as a child in the coast of Spain as I'm half S. European myself. Where the local 'puti-club' is just another thing people joke about since its so common. > Why do we see so few Dutch and Swedish and Danish emancipated free empowered women self-actualize through porn work? First, as I outlined already and my first hand experiences: I don't think sex work is empowering at all and often has more to do with poverty and dire economic circumstances then the tired narrative of it being so that's shoved down our collective throats by this neo-femisnist narrative. Which is why you see the higher frequency of E. European women you mentioned in those situations instead of a women from wealthy Nordic country with good social nets and social mobility.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  > Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to. This is crazily important. However ... it still doesn't get to the question of why anyone would consider being on OnlyFans (I'm not discussing in-person sex work) to be more problematic than having to do some other sort of low-paid, low-status, boring, dead-end, exploitative job (and remember, OnlyFans is a classic long-tail situation: for most people on it, it is low paid). The big picture is that we live in a society which despite occasional flowery words from a senator here and there does not actually value and care for all of its members. We continuously and repeatedly place our neighbors, family, friends, colleagues in situations where in order to survive they have to take options they do not really want to take. We could take much better care of each other. We could make the bad options much better. We could do both.
- SyzygistSix 6y ago
  >Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to. Sounds like the majority of jobs. Although I agree that the lack of social services in the US has reached ridiculous levels.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> Willingly sell self for pleasure though? Psh Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to. It was entirely eye-opening to see how sad it is when you're talking with a young women trying to sell their bitcoin at 2am to pay for rent before they get evicted and have enough to buy baby formula and diapers. The US is so backwards, they can show the most depraved forms of violence and cruelty imaginable and call it entertainment with out batting an eye, but showing the Human form in any sexual manner is somehow cause for alarm and deemed perverse and promoting rape culture if you believe some of the most absurd in Society. Whereas in Europe and Asia nudity is completely accepted in many public areas, and sex work is tolerated, legal and is just another, albeit uncommon, thing people do for a living and nothing more. As for this article, its showing how pervasive the Panopticon this form of the Internet is and underscore the idea that 'you are the product' mantra about 'free' services. We really need a different Internet already. Porn is and will always be a big component of the Internet, but much like the antics you had when you were an adolescent you soon realize their is much more value in other things and move on.

what2build 6y ago
People are hardly working for Google because they want to. People are hardly working in slaughter houses and coal mines because they want to. Feminists I know are selling themselves because they like sex, and controlling their bodies time economy is their choice. One would think on this forum that it’s a gradient of statistics and not black and white anecdotes would be more obvious. Exploitation of minors is one thing. Though, I do not see many folks lifting a finger over child political prisoners in rancid cages. So I’m left wondering if exploitation is the real issue or the sex part given cultural norms.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Feminists I know are selling themselves because they like sex, and controlling their bodies time economy is their choice. Not to dwell on this so much, as my observations of sex workers were those who did it for need rather then pleasure, but what part of 'selling yourself' is empowering? I mean if you like something, like a hobby, you usually don't seek to monetize it if you want keep enjoying it. It seems to cheapen the activity as you start applying different metric than sheer joy as the only goal, and instead look an things through an PNL lens. In fact introducing these metrics is almost always a net negative activity--now in my 30s I've turned almost all of my hobbies, skills and interests into a professional career to the detriment of my pleasure towards it and suffered because I bought into the fake adage of 'never having to work a day' for most of my Life. Whereas it's now become the new normal to view 'feminism' as a preferential distortion of facts and realities in favour of biased outcomes that don't hold up to any scrutiny. I have no problem with sex workers, I've treated them all with the same respect I would with customers in the professional or corporate sectors I've been in and they always remarked how differently I was because of that. But, the truth is I hold almost near disdain for social media 'thots' (male or female) who exploit mentally weak and vulnerable people into giving them money in exchange of attention/sexual exploitation and exploiting Human vulnerability and a need for connection. I think the same applies to these 'feminists' prostitutes and their false narrative because of the obvious level of hypocrisy behind it and its motives is one of obvious extractive relationships with people based on self-interest, vulgar opportunism and having the social inertia to carry on forcing people to buy into that view. > Exploitation of minors is one thing. Though, I do not see many folks lifting a finger over child political prisoners in rancid cages. So I’m left wondering if exploitation is the real issue or the sex part given cultural norms. The Catholic Church still exists, start with questioning why that den of pedophilia is institutionalized in modern Society despite the countless amounts of child rape and exempt from taxation before you go any further. Then you'll see why things like the Epstein-Maxwell sex trafficking of minors is more common than one would care to think. Which again ties to the what I said above about exploitation of vulnerable people.
  - what2build 6y ago
    How you can connect a handful of (some college educated) women I know putting their body where they want with men they pick as being anything like a billionaires sex cabal drugging and buying kids from poor parents are at all similar is some Machiavellian effort. Bravo. But since we’re on the subject; maybe put less value into financial trade which is the contemporary value store propping up the exploitation of billionaires. Perhaps buy fewer gadgets that prop up the economy they grift on from the masses agency. Perhaps be more for raising taxes to distribute wealth to communities that can use it if you’re that worried. Above all perhaps avoid centralizing authority over agency in private power. A pattern we keep buying into as a species only to realize it rather makes things worse for the majority. Put your agency into something that tackles artificial social problems (stock values, disposable widgets sold!, not enough money for M4A or community uplift in poor areas) instead of (sad as it may be) human issues that have existed forever, and there’s precious little we can do about it. Even if billionaire sex cabals vanish, are you going to scour the world seeking out every tribal instance? Or are you simply reaching for acceptable semantics from your perspective? In other words: walk the walk when it comes to pushing back against immoral behavior as you see it. Semantic battles here over specific instances are self congratulatory and empty if we’ll simply equivocate away structural changes.
bonoboTP 6y ago
> Whereas in Europe and Asia nudity is completely accepted in many public areas, and sex work is tolerated, legal and is just another, albeit uncommon, thing people do for a living and nothing more This is way overemphasized on the Internet by people who don't have much experience with living in Europe. It's similar to Europeans imagining that in the US it's an everyday thing that people are dying left and right because they can't pay for an emergency ambulance to take them to the hospital. Nudity may be less stigmatized than in America, but prostitution is not something normal people as just another job that they'd be happy if their daughter chose it. On the surface, people may seem more tolerant of it, but privately they definitely act differently. Why do we see so few Dutch and Swedish and Danish emancipated free empowered women self-actualize through porn work? Why is it always poorer Eastern European Czech, Polish, Hungarian, Ukrainian, Russian women at the top of porn star lists?
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Nudity may be less stigmatized than in America, but prostitution is not something normal people as just another job that they'd be happy if their daughter chose it. On the surface, people may seem more tolerant of it, but privately they definitely act differently. When I was in my last year of apprenticeship in Switzerland I managed one the estates of the owner's homes for most of the year while they worked in Bern, which included the investment homes they had in Zurich and in Lussane. It was where generational wealthy people parked their money, guess who our neighbors were? High class Swiss escorts, I know this because I met them and asked to keep an eye on things while I was away and gave them vegetables from our farm in exchange as a good gesture of will. I lived in S. Germany in what was once Ag land but had been urbanized for wealthy 'Green minded' Germans, where prostitution is once again legal. I got chatted up on the train a few times only to find out (by my then German-Anglo fiance) it was a meet and greet tactic they use to get them into the brothels and is apparently common to use on foreigners and university students. They were all German not one was Eastern European, which to be honest is what I'm more physically attracted to than most Western Europeans. I can go on here about working Summers in Croatia, and Italy that included catering to nude sunbathing crowds in camp sites and resorts which are frequented mainly by other Western Europeans, but suffice it to say: I was born and raised in CA, but I've lived and worked in Europe long enough to stand by my claims and spent my Summers as a child in the coast of Spain as I'm half S. European myself. Where the local 'puti-club' is just another thing people joke about since its so common. > Why do we see so few Dutch and Swedish and Danish emancipated free empowered women self-actualize through porn work? First, as I outlined already and my first hand experiences: I don't think sex work is empowering at all and often has more to do with poverty and dire economic circumstances then the tired narrative of it being so that's shoved down our collective throats by this neo-femisnist narrative. Which is why you see the higher frequency of E. European women you mentioned in those situations instead of a women from wealthy Nordic country with good social nets and social mobility.
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
> Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to. This is crazily important. However ... it still doesn't get to the question of why anyone would consider being on OnlyFans (I'm not discussing in-person sex work) to be more problematic than having to do some other sort of low-paid, low-status, boring, dead-end, exploitative job (and remember, OnlyFans is a classic long-tail situation: for most people on it, it is low paid). The big picture is that we live in a society which despite occasional flowery words from a senator here and there does not actually value and care for all of its members. We continuously and repeatedly place our neighbors, family, friends, colleagues in situations where in order to survive they have to take options they do not really want to take. We could take much better care of each other. We could make the bad options much better. We could do both.
SyzygistSix 6y ago
>Having been in a sector of fintech that many sex workers used, I can say with confidence that the majority of the women within were single moms who simply couldn't or didn't have access to the social net to feed their children and aren't doing it because they want to. Sounds like the majority of jobs. Although I agree that the lack of social services in the US has reached ridiculous levels.