5 ms·

As a transgender person I find HN members to be somewhat transphobic in previous discussions unrelated to this article about transgender issues. So unsure if it

As a transgender person I find HN members to be somewhat transphobic in previous discussions unrelated to this article about transgender issues. So unsure if it's a good place for discussion here. It would be nice if articles like the submitted one were moderated better. Feels like HN takes a stance of ignoring these gender topics or flagging them and while being more defensive of other non-gender topics that are controversial. Puberty blockers are used for other medical issues and aren't considered dangerous or life damaging. Anyway this topic is somewhat meaningful to me because I really don't think people know how truly valuable it can be for someone to stall puberty when they desire to. I find it appalling that cis society is quick to make sure no confused cis kid is harmed while ignoring trans kids that end up permanently disfigured by their voice & appearance from the wrong puberty. It's basically comparable to a cis kid having the wrong hormones damaging their body through puberty like a boy growing breasts and people just shrug their shoulders when it's a trans kid. For context I went through the wrong puberty (I'm only 30 years old) and recently have been diagnosed with cancer. I'm choosing not to get treatment for the cancer and so I can get Medical Assistance in Dying because Gender Dysphoria sucks while all surgeries to possibly fix voice or appearance is like putting a downpayment for a house. Also was disowned by parents and struggled through university years because of constant bullying. Anyway I really hope people can take the time to consider that some kids truly know they're trans and it's not a fad to them.

underseacables 6y ago
A lot of the pushback is because, for you, it’s a choice that you hope will make you feel better and more accepted in the world. To the rest of us, it’s a psychiatric disorder and you need serious, long term help. No amount of surgeries, or hormone blockers is going to change that. As much as you may disagree, it’s science, and it’s absolutely irrefutable.
- mewse 6y ago
  If it’s irrefutable, it is not science. By definition.
  - knighthack 6y ago
    Your logic fails me. The known speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s, or thereabouts. That's measured, and (by current technological standards) irrefutable. That cannot be science, because it is irrefutable?
    - mewse 6y ago
      You’ve picked a really fun example and I’m glad you asked! You are exactly correct; the value of the speed of light is not science because it cannot be refuted. (Although this was not always true!) You see, in 1983 the definition of the length of a meter was changed to be the distance that light travels through vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second, precisely. Or to put that differently, that the speed of light through vacuum is pinned at 299,792,458 meters per second, precisely. Not “by current technological standards”; that’s the exact value of the speed of light in SI units, and presumably always will be. So light now always travels at that speed because we’ve defined it that way, and if (when) we develop better methods to more accurately measure how far light travels over a period of time, it changes the length of a meter, not the speed of light. Light would still be travelling at 299,792,458 m/s; those meters would just be a little longer or shorter to compensate for whatever errors we discovered. (And similarly, if we discovered that our measurements of certain specific vibrations of caesium-133 atoms were wrong, it doesn’t change the measured length of a second; it changes the length of a meter. The duration of a second relative to the caesium-133 atoms is fixed by fiat, the same way that the speed of light is fixed by fiat) But if you’d asked before 1983, then I’d have said that yes, the value of the speed of light was easily refutable, simply by following the standard everyday process of science. (and in fact this happened in 1972, 1958, 1950, 1926, 1907, etc and so on all the way back to the mid-1600s) If you wanted to ‘refute’ the currently accepted speed of light, then all you had to do was run an experiment to measure the speed of light and find out that it had a different speed than everybody thought previously. Once you did that, you of course needed to get a bunch of other scientists to inspect your methodology and results and then repeat your experiment and do other variations of your experiment, and eventually come into agreement with your new, improved measurement. Boom! Refuted. Science, bitches. :D The whole point of science is that every single one of its findings can be refuted if new experiments determine that our previous understanding was incorrect. If something can’t be refuted, it’s not science. By definition. That’s the core distinguishing feature between science and dogma/opinions/whatever. But yeah. The speed of light? Not science any more. We’ve declared a value by fiat and no experimental results can change it from here on out.
- abellerose 6y ago
  It's not a choice, I didn't choose the sex I was born with in this world and similar for having gender dysphoria. It's like being born without legs and using what has been developed from science to correct the problem. Have the right hormones be distributed in the body and so I could've mimic'ed a somewhat normal life like a cis woman that cannot get pregnant. Unsure why you writing it a psychiatric disorder and then arguing it's not a real thing while expressing your view as it's science. A successful transition doesn't need lifelong help and I have friends that are transgender that never have seen a therapist or a psychiatrist. They were ones that were lucky to get on puberty blockers or HRT young with good genetics to pass as their identity.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  My understanding is that therapy alone is less effective at securing long term happiness compared to therapy and transitioning. Anything to do with your brain is simultaneously all in your head by definition and also real.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > As much as you may disagree, it’s science, and it’s absolutely irrefutable. Just checking that you know that any relevant healthcare professional disagrees with you. This includes WPATH, USPATH, CPATH, AusPATH, PATHA, AsiaPATH, EUPATH, WHO, CDC, ICD11
CryptoPunk 6y ago
>It's basically comparable to a cis kid having the wrong hormones damaging their body through puberty like a boy growing breasts and people just shrug their shoulders when it's a trans kid. One mistake leaves a person sterile. One doesn't.
- abellerose 6y ago
  I never wanted kids and would argue that sperm banking is an option if that's a fear. I don't see your argument any different than forcing one's beliefs on others to prevent a medical treatment that oneself desires as well. Lastly, majority of people I know nowadays aren't even having kids.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    Of course, for some people sterility is not a problem. For some, it is a massive problem. Parents have a right to force their beliefs onto their children if their beliefs are reasonable. Their children will often thank them for it when they've become adults. You're dismissing sterility as a non-issue when it is a massive issue for many people, and moreover, you're obfuscating the fact that this is about children, and the potential to undergo life-altering treatment with no psychiatric evaluation and little-to-no consultation.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      The court case is about PBs. PBs do not cause sterility. Either you know that and don't care, or you don't know that, but either way it means you're not discussing in good faith. > Parents have a right to force their beliefs onto their children if their beliefs are reasonable. This court case said that combined parental consent and child consent was not enough, and that the court could ignore the wishes of the parent. > and the potential to undergo life-altering treatment with no psychiatric evaluation and little-to-no consultation. Simply untrue.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        What's bad faith is claiming that what myself and the OP were discussing is merely PB, when in reality it's about the full hormone therapy treatment regiment involved in gender transitioning. But way to score a point on pedantic grounds. >This court case said that combined parental consent and child consent was not enough I was responding to the OP's point, that claimed I was arguing for forcing my beliefs on others. I was making the point that in principle, it can be perfectly okay for parents to force their beliefs on their children. It depends on the circumstances and the specific details of the case. I was not making an argument for or against parental privilege for any specific case.
michaelmrose 6y ago
Is your life really not worth saving if you cannot receive the surgeries? I cannot know how you feel about your life and its impossible for me to decide how you ought to feel but I also can't help but feel like there is always some degree of hope. Could a case be made that they failed to get you the help you needed earlier and thus ought to foot the bill now? Is it reasonably possible that you might earn enough to pay for it? Could you raise money from others to do so? Why not all 3 raise and earn money for it while trying to recoup expenses in court?
- abellerose 6y ago
  Thanks but I've never been a person to accept charity. Basically, I grew up in USA as a Canadian Citizen cause parents moved to USA when I was young. Lived in a really bad area of Michigan from childhood to adulthood. I now finally live in Quebec away from that dreaded past. Yah life isn't worth living as my other comments somewhat explain. In Canada I haven't had success getting surgeries coverage for fixing either my voice or face from what characteristics people gender me. I tried for a few years to get coverage and even appealed my insurance's decision against my psychiatrist's letter saying the surgeries are medically necessary. I went to a surgeon that's the head surgeon for the surgeries transwomen get and he said none of his colleagues understand Gender Dysphoria to know why the surgeries should be medically necessary. The public insurance only cares about the surgeon's opinion. So I've basically given up on coverage. I find it even more irritating nowadays since I've read about the common cancers when I was diagnosed. Women that get breast cancer have no problems getting full coverage for breast reconstruction under the public insurance. I think that obviously should be a thing but it feels like added sting to my situation since I've not even had success with breasts from HRT by starting after puberty. Anyway I tried enough I think and worked hard, but life just never wanted things to work out. I think I'm just cursed in life so MAiD makes sense. The judgement is found here for the coverage request if you're interested: http://citoyens.soquij.qc.ca/php/decision.php?ID=C97168147E655057368ACBE84B3EB0CC&captchaToken=03AGdBq27Bd1L9WLaFI6P0zNBxe9ZvNLYwSHziGH8wmFRyAuy-049sQF9d9T6g4jnaHpkUJt3XZ_2rXnDreJXSc7k1b2l9aFED4oO8QLckAwltqBukMQUtNMpUNeZCvqXVScPnoePqiCw5kR-VhHOqihwKoM03pA4myBh8o2Ofe1O_HFCIxBeJBJw5v-3cveorIwAE2IwWHlouSiuWgOMfoNl8y9cR70MZIfGvsoD5ZiLSP8Q5jfFAyglJ2-iH5UWLzX9NlQdOXL3mBR0uvOdw82M-2yctWPsWdqhe1bL2_BVNoYFXB1aSJZx_ZiiilkVXzMGerxOEWSNuaOpF-WnwbUOFffMhfsC6Fu7PDk7iwHXe1-8w6AidDn-UCwyiE2fGw_s6Ad4r4r9n0qtwA2nN7piuRA9R1CrNCZ0yIt_xS0A0zmlAkS7D5sHBVv0Mn7n2JWup8ERDmqAG6NR8SBqjffahG41Rpa44sw http://citoyens.soquij.qc.ca/php/decision.php?ID=C97168147E6...
osivertsson 6y ago
abellerose you are only 30 years old, please choose life. Things will get better. I am sure you have so much good to experience in this world if you find the right environment and people around you. If you want to talk please send a hi and we can go from there, email is in my profile.
- abellerose 6y ago
  I've been told by my Oncologist I only have a year left to live if I don't get treatment. That was back in October. There's really no reason to live as a disfigured person for all people. Some people can do it and I respect those individuals. I rather continue just taking morphine (otherwise I cannot walk) and get assisted dying after the snow melts. I feel like I've enjoyed enough of this life that I could. I'll email you if you don't mind my mentality, I always like to write to someone about anything. It's my favorite way to pass the time.
andreskytt 6y ago
I truly feel bad for you. At the same time I look at my own kids and find that the “want” is often temporary but the result is permanent. Of course they want a puppy but are very unlikely to be able to take care of it properly for 15 years. And the “want” is very much real, they firmly believe it to be their utmost desire. So how do I, as a parent, tell the difference between something they can and cannot take responsibility for, they can or cannot learn to live without?
- abellerose 6y ago
  I knew when I was around ~7 and that never went away. I don't really think of it like a "want" of a puppy because I had wants like a puppy too and those go away after a few weeks or months in childhood. It's not something like years and years of never going away. Btw, most people don't consider that being denied something like I was and that has life long consequences as way more hurtful while knowing you were right; and others prevented you. Thinking about things in my life I've been wrong about, such events are way less painful because it felt like my fault when people weren't involved by stoping me from what was right. The painful events are when people involved prevent what was right for you. Basically, it's way more awful when you undergo the wrong circumstances because of someone else that prevented what you knew was right instead of undergoing what was wrong by your own mistake. I tried my best to make that not confusing before I go to sleep.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  Just adopt a puppy from a shelter and give it back when/if the kids get bored of it (maybe even donate them so that they have money to keep the dog). I also wanted a dog when I was a child, my parents didn't let me have it, but now I have living conditions when I wouldn't be able to, so it's too late to have one.
- DanBC 6y ago
  You see if that desire has been a fixed and constant part of their life since a young age. You check whether they can relieve their distress using any other methods. You check the severity of their distress.

underseacables 6y ago

A lot of the pushback is because, for you, it’s a choice that you hope will make you feel better and more accepted in the world. To the rest of us, it’s a psychiatric disorder and you need serious, long term help. No amount of surgeries, or hormone blockers is going to change that. As much as you may disagree, it’s science, and it’s absolutely irrefutable.

mewse 6y ago
If it’s irrefutable, it is not science. By definition.
- knighthack 6y ago
  Your logic fails me. The known speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s, or thereabouts. That's measured, and (by current technological standards) irrefutable. That cannot be science, because it is irrefutable?
  - mewse 6y ago
    You’ve picked a really fun example and I’m glad you asked! You are exactly correct; the value of the speed of light is not science because it cannot be refuted. (Although this was not always true!) You see, in 1983 the definition of the length of a meter was changed to be the distance that light travels through vacuum in 1/299,792,458 of a second, precisely. Or to put that differently, that the speed of light through vacuum is pinned at 299,792,458 meters per second, precisely. Not “by current technological standards”; that’s the exact value of the speed of light in SI units, and presumably always will be. So light now always travels at that speed because we’ve defined it that way, and if (when) we develop better methods to more accurately measure how far light travels over a period of time, it changes the length of a meter, not the speed of light. Light would still be travelling at 299,792,458 m/s; those meters would just be a little longer or shorter to compensate for whatever errors we discovered. (And similarly, if we discovered that our measurements of certain specific vibrations of caesium-133 atoms were wrong, it doesn’t change the measured length of a second; it changes the length of a meter. The duration of a second relative to the caesium-133 atoms is fixed by fiat, the same way that the speed of light is fixed by fiat) But if you’d asked before 1983, then I’d have said that yes, the value of the speed of light was easily refutable, simply by following the standard everyday process of science. (and in fact this happened in 1972, 1958, 1950, 1926, 1907, etc and so on all the way back to the mid-1600s) If you wanted to ‘refute’ the currently accepted speed of light, then all you had to do was run an experiment to measure the speed of light and find out that it had a different speed than everybody thought previously. Once you did that, you of course needed to get a bunch of other scientists to inspect your methodology and results and then repeat your experiment and do other variations of your experiment, and eventually come into agreement with your new, improved measurement. Boom! Refuted. Science, bitches. :D The whole point of science is that every single one of its findings can be refuted if new experiments determine that our previous understanding was incorrect. If something can’t be refuted, it’s not science. By definition. That’s the core distinguishing feature between science and dogma/opinions/whatever. But yeah. The speed of light? Not science any more. We’ve declared a value by fiat and no experimental results can change it from here on out.
abellerose 6y ago
It's not a choice, I didn't choose the sex I was born with in this world and similar for having gender dysphoria. It's like being born without legs and using what has been developed from science to correct the problem. Have the right hormones be distributed in the body and so I could've mimic'ed a somewhat normal life like a cis woman that cannot get pregnant. Unsure why you writing it a psychiatric disorder and then arguing it's not a real thing while expressing your view as it's science. A successful transition doesn't need lifelong help and I have friends that are transgender that never have seen a therapist or a psychiatrist. They were ones that were lucky to get on puberty blockers or HRT young with good genetics to pass as their identity.
michaelmrose 6y ago
My understanding is that therapy alone is less effective at securing long term happiness compared to therapy and transitioning. Anything to do with your brain is simultaneously all in your head by definition and also real.
DanBC 6y ago
> As much as you may disagree, it’s science, and it’s absolutely irrefutable. Just checking that you know that any relevant healthcare professional disagrees with you. This includes WPATH, USPATH, CPATH, AusPATH, PATHA, AsiaPATH, EUPATH, WHO, CDC, ICD11

CryptoPunk 6y ago

>It's basically comparable to a cis kid having the wrong hormones damaging their body through puberty like a boy growing breasts and people just shrug their shoulders when it's a trans kid. One mistake leaves a person sterile. One doesn't.

abellerose 6y ago
I never wanted kids and would argue that sperm banking is an option if that's a fear. I don't see your argument any different than forcing one's beliefs on others to prevent a medical treatment that oneself desires as well. Lastly, majority of people I know nowadays aren't even having kids.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  Of course, for some people sterility is not a problem. For some, it is a massive problem. Parents have a right to force their beliefs onto their children if their beliefs are reasonable. Their children will often thank them for it when they've become adults. You're dismissing sterility as a non-issue when it is a massive issue for many people, and moreover, you're obfuscating the fact that this is about children, and the potential to undergo life-altering treatment with no psychiatric evaluation and little-to-no consultation.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    The court case is about PBs. PBs do not cause sterility. Either you know that and don't care, or you don't know that, but either way it means you're not discussing in good faith. > Parents have a right to force their beliefs onto their children if their beliefs are reasonable. This court case said that combined parental consent and child consent was not enough, and that the court could ignore the wishes of the parent. > and the potential to undergo life-altering treatment with no psychiatric evaluation and little-to-no consultation. Simply untrue.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      What's bad faith is claiming that what myself and the OP were discussing is merely PB, when in reality it's about the full hormone therapy treatment regiment involved in gender transitioning. But way to score a point on pedantic grounds. >This court case said that combined parental consent and child consent was not enough I was responding to the OP's point, that claimed I was arguing for forcing my beliefs on others. I was making the point that in principle, it can be perfectly okay for parents to force their beliefs on their children. It depends on the circumstances and the specific details of the case. I was not making an argument for or against parental privilege for any specific case.

michaelmrose 6y ago

Is your life really not worth saving if you cannot receive the surgeries? I cannot know how you feel about your life and its impossible for me to decide how you ought to feel but I also can't help but feel like there is always some degree of hope. Could a case be made that they failed to get you the help you needed earlier and thus ought to foot the bill now? Is it reasonably possible that you might earn enough to pay for it? Could you raise money from others to do so? Why not all 3 raise and earn money for it while trying to recoup expenses in court?

abellerose 6y ago
Thanks but I've never been a person to accept charity. Basically, I grew up in USA as a Canadian Citizen cause parents moved to USA when I was young. Lived in a really bad area of Michigan from childhood to adulthood. I now finally live in Quebec away from that dreaded past. Yah life isn't worth living as my other comments somewhat explain. In Canada I haven't had success getting surgeries coverage for fixing either my voice or face from what characteristics people gender me. I tried for a few years to get coverage and even appealed my insurance's decision against my psychiatrist's letter saying the surgeries are medically necessary. I went to a surgeon that's the head surgeon for the surgeries transwomen get and he said none of his colleagues understand Gender Dysphoria to know why the surgeries should be medically necessary. The public insurance only cares about the surgeon's opinion. So I've basically given up on coverage. I find it even more irritating nowadays since I've read about the common cancers when I was diagnosed. Women that get breast cancer have no problems getting full coverage for breast reconstruction under the public insurance. I think that obviously should be a thing but it feels like added sting to my situation since I've not even had success with breasts from HRT by starting after puberty. Anyway I tried enough I think and worked hard, but life just never wanted things to work out. I think I'm just cursed in life so MAiD makes sense. The judgement is found here for the coverage request if you're interested: http://citoyens.soquij.qc.ca/php/decision.php?ID=C97168147E655057368ACBE84B3EB0CC&captchaToken=03AGdBq27Bd1L9WLaFI6P0zNBxe9ZvNLYwSHziGH8wmFRyAuy-049sQF9d9T6g4jnaHpkUJt3XZ_2rXnDreJXSc7k1b2l9aFED4oO8QLckAwltqBukMQUtNMpUNeZCvqXVScPnoePqiCw5kR-VhHOqihwKoM03pA4myBh8o2Ofe1O_HFCIxBeJBJw5v-3cveorIwAE2IwWHlouSiuWgOMfoNl8y9cR70MZIfGvsoD5ZiLSP8Q5jfFAyglJ2-iH5UWLzX9NlQdOXL3mBR0uvOdw82M-2yctWPsWdqhe1bL2_BVNoYFXB1aSJZx_ZiiilkVXzMGerxOEWSNuaOpF-WnwbUOFffMhfsC6Fu7PDk7iwHXe1-8w6AidDn-UCwyiE2fGw_s6Ad4r4r9n0qtwA2nN7piuRA9R1CrNCZ0yIt_xS0A0zmlAkS7D5sHBVv0Mn7n2JWup8ERDmqAG6NR8SBqjffahG41Rpa44sw http://citoyens.soquij.qc.ca/php/decision.php?ID=C97168147E6...

osivertsson 6y ago

abellerose you are only 30 years old, please choose life. Things will get better. I am sure you have so much good to experience in this world if you find the right environment and people around you. If you want to talk please send a hi and we can go from there, email is in my profile.

abellerose 6y ago
I've been told by my Oncologist I only have a year left to live if I don't get treatment. That was back in October. There's really no reason to live as a disfigured person for all people. Some people can do it and I respect those individuals. I rather continue just taking morphine (otherwise I cannot walk) and get assisted dying after the snow melts. I feel like I've enjoyed enough of this life that I could. I'll email you if you don't mind my mentality, I always like to write to someone about anything. It's my favorite way to pass the time.

andreskytt 6y ago

I truly feel bad for you. At the same time I look at my own kids and find that the “want” is often temporary but the result is permanent. Of course they want a puppy but are very unlikely to be able to take care of it properly for 15 years. And the “want” is very much real, they firmly believe it to be their utmost desire. So how do I, as a parent, tell the difference between something they can and cannot take responsibility for, they can or cannot learn to live without?

abellerose 6y ago
I knew when I was around ~7 and that never went away. I don't really think of it like a "want" of a puppy because I had wants like a puppy too and those go away after a few weeks or months in childhood. It's not something like years and years of never going away. Btw, most people don't consider that being denied something like I was and that has life long consequences as way more hurtful while knowing you were right; and others prevented you. Thinking about things in my life I've been wrong about, such events are way less painful because it felt like my fault when people weren't involved by stoping me from what was right. The painful events are when people involved prevent what was right for you. Basically, it's way more awful when you undergo the wrong circumstances because of someone else that prevented what you knew was right instead of undergoing what was wrong by your own mistake. I tried my best to make that not confusing before I go to sleep.
xiphias2 6y ago
Just adopt a puppy from a shelter and give it back when/if the kids get bored of it (maybe even donate them so that they have money to keep the dog). I also wanted a dog when I was a child, my parents didn't let me have it, but now I have living conditions when I wouldn't be able to, so it's too late to have one.
DanBC 6y ago
You see if that desire has been a fixed and constant part of their life since a young age. You check whether they can relieve their distress using any other methods. You check the severity of their distress.