6 ms·

Defaulting to generosity - while operating with healthy boundaries - is by far the most beneficial mindset. The alternatives are: Victim. "I am too weak and p

Defaulting to generosity - while operating with healthy boundaries - is by far the most beneficial mindset. The alternatives are: Victim. "I am too weak and poor to help anyone but I expect people to help me." This belief corrodes you. Stoic(can't think of a better word.) "I don't help anyone and therefore I don't expect anyone to help me". Well, better than the victim but ends up passing up many opportunities where others are genuinely ready to help. Abuser "I don't bother to help others but I take advantage of them" - becomes obvious very quickly and you are ostracized and hated. Doormat "I help everyone but because I don't have healthy boundaries, I end up attracting abusers and victims." Gross. The "best people" are clear and confident with their boundaries and generous with their time and resources when people are on the right side of the boundary. I see this a lot with truly successful senior managers and businesspeople, for example. Even in politics, when a candidate runs for office, they want to tell stories of "X came to me and needed help and I really took the time to hear them and help them (kindness). Then Y came and they sought to rip us off and I told them to go fuck themselves (boundaries)." We seek that as species, we expect that out of the best among us, and therefore we reward those who operate from this place (and it's good for lots of other reasons.)

Biganon 6y ago
I find it kinda weird that you called the doormat archetype gross, and not the abuser.
- OJFord 6y ago
  I read it as 'a gross position, don't put yourself in it'; not 'anyone in such a position is themselves gross'.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    Exactly. It's also unpleasant to witness this happening to someone else. In contrast I used 'hate' for the abuser.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  Tip: Don't race to make the most uncharitable, extreme interpretation.
tossmeout 6y ago
The variables here are: * where your boundaries lie along the spectrum from self-serving to doormat * your propensity to be generous to people on the good side of your boundaries I myself trend close to what you'd call a stoic. Probably out of fear of being a doormat. My boundaries are healthyish, but I don't quite trust them. So I don't seek out help from others, and in return I hope they don't ask for generosity from me. Being generous without crossing my boundaries is something I have to work on. I know some narcissists who can actually be quite generous. This fools them into thinking, "There's no way I'm a narcissist!" because they can easily recall past instances of generosity. Yet they're still regarded by others as selfish. Their boundaries are shifted so far in their favor that they feel taxed being generous to others who most would deem worthy of generosity. And they expect sympathy, attention, and generosity in situations where most would not have that expectation. These abusers often do end up ostracized, but that doesn't always look like solitude. They become victims, upset at their crummy relationships and unable to garner sympathy from others, yet unwilling to ever point the finger at themselves. Some end up alone, yes. Others befriend other victims who they can commiserate with, but those relationships don't last long for obvious reasons. So it's sort of a fleeting, on-again off-again ostracism. Of course I'm speaking in generalities here. Plenty of victims aren't narcissists, etc. And I do have sympathy. Nobody chooses to be a narcissist. I think some people are just wired that way, or perhaps set on that course by environmental factors early in life. Either way, it's not a choice. So I think it's somewhat of a tragic condition. My advice would be that if you're consistently getting negative feedback about your personality traits, take it seriously. It'll be tempting to deny and seek disconfirmation, e.g. by changing the subject, blaming your accusers, deflecting to other causes (e.g. race or gender), or running away to find people who will say nice things about you. But for all our follies, human beings are naturally pretty decent judges of character. If you're getting consistent character feedback from lots of different people, it's probably accurate.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  I found the clarity of your thinking and writing refreshing, it's rare for someone to observe and recognize these archetypes. I by and large agree with how you see it. One thing jumped out: >> I think some people are just wired that way, or perhaps set on that course by environmental factors early in life. Either way, it's not a choice. So I think it's somewhat of a tragic condition. and >> My advice would be that if you're consistently getting negative feedback about personality traits from others, take it seriously. If you think about it these two comments are contradictory. Either you are a victim of your programming, or you have the power to (slowly and painfully) recognize it and change. I am a firm believer that people ultimately can recognize their problems and change. Recognition is the harder part. For most of us, to recognize the really deep and ugly things about ourselves is really hard and often is only done when someone has hit bottom and are forced to confront that there's something wrong. It's easy to say "listen to feedback" but it's impossible to convince someone they should until they've had some painful experience that forced them to recognize there's something that needs to be heard. But it's possible and important. The other thought as I was reading your comment - I think you'll enjoy Ray Dalio's Principles book.
raducu 6y ago
Is that what stoics really taught or a modern misrepresentation, like "cynic"?
- DarthGhandi 6y ago
  The stoics came from the school of cynicism originally in Greek philosophy and were heavily influenced by it in the early days.
- ghgr 6y ago
  It's a modern misrepresentation. In fact, Stoicism encourages to help your neighbor. From the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius: > [...] Do not be carried along inconsiderately by the appearance of things, but give help to all according to thy ability and their fitness [...] (Book V) > [...] Reverence the gods, and help men. Short is life. There is only one fruit of this terrene life, a pious disposition and social acts. [...] ( Book VI ) You can read the full ebook here [1] (I'd link to project Gutenberg but unfortunately they're still blocking German readers). Alas. [1] https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditations/george-long/text/single-page https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation...
laurent92 6y ago
You forgot one kind of generosity called « Actual experience »: The « I have been decently generous most of my life(1), and yet, when I had a need, no-one wanted to care much (you know, who cares about a white male, we want fewer of them in our company) so now I default to buying pure mercure on Alibaba and throwing it into the lake » kind of generosity. If all of those speeches about generosity and inclusivity were remotely honest, I wouldn’t have to fight people who claim equality is giving an interesting job only to women. Also, no need to propose one now, I’m fat and suicidal and down a dozen social steps. (1) $13.000 up to 32 years old, on top of normal taxes which are already supposed to solve poverty here in France.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- xyzelement 6y ago
  Laurent, this sounds dismal and I am sorry. What you talk about in paragraph one is a real thing - there are plenty of people who are your friends when everything is great but fade when you need a little bit of help (even if you're not even asking them for it.) I experienced that recently, it's really disappointing. But I also experienced a surprising amount of help from people I wasn't even close to and it was just a reminder to me to default to be that kind of person. That's actually what inspired my original post. About your paragraph two, I kinda agree - there's a big divide between people who talk a big game about inclusivity etc and those who quietly practice it as a matter of principle. Anyway, for what it's worth I hope things turn better for you, and I just want to say that destructiveness and self-destructiveness aren't going to help anything.
- nicbou 6y ago
  If you treat generosity as a form of investment, you are bound to be disappointed. I see it as a small contribution to a better world. If you want something back, ask for money and call it a job.
trianglem 6y ago
How about don’t mind helping but don’t really want to start a network effect of mutual back and forth because I don’t want to give up my time doing these things and get caught up in reciprocal network chains.
dahart 6y ago
I think there is a whole lot of anthropological and economic thinking on roles that you haven’t covered. For example gift giving can be a role people use to indicate status, and/or caretaking of a local community. Giving comes with, some people argue, complex social relationships. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy
appleflaxen 6y ago
That's not what stoicism is. Stoicism has more to do with things that happen to you vs how you treat other people. It's great that you disclaim it a bit with "can't think of a better word", but it's just inaccurate. Perhaps "libertarian"? Or "rugged individualist"?

Biganon 6y ago

I find it kinda weird that you called the doormat archetype gross, and not the abuser.

OJFord 6y ago
I read it as 'a gross position, don't put yourself in it'; not 'anyone in such a position is themselves gross'.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  Exactly. It's also unpleasant to witness this happening to someone else. In contrast I used 'hate' for the abuser.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hombre_fatal 6y ago
Tip: Don't race to make the most uncharitable, extreme interpretation.

tossmeout 6y ago

The variables here are: * where your boundaries lie along the spectrum from self-serving to doormat * your propensity to be generous to people on the good side of your boundaries I myself trend close to what you'd call a stoic. Probably out of fear of being a doormat. My boundaries are healthyish, but I don't quite trust them. So I don't seek out help from others, and in return I hope they don't ask for generosity from me. Being generous without crossing my boundaries is something I have to work on. I know some narcissists who can actually be quite generous. This fools them into thinking, "There's no way I'm a narcissist!" because they can easily recall past instances of generosity. Yet they're still regarded by others as selfish. Their boundaries are shifted so far in their favor that they feel taxed being generous to others who most would deem worthy of generosity. And they expect sympathy, attention, and generosity in situations where most would not have that expectation. These abusers often do end up ostracized, but that doesn't always look like solitude. They become victims, upset at their crummy relationships and unable to garner sympathy from others, yet unwilling to ever point the finger at themselves. Some end up alone, yes. Others befriend other victims who they can commiserate with, but those relationships don't last long for obvious reasons. So it's sort of a fleeting, on-again off-again ostracism. Of course I'm speaking in generalities here. Plenty of victims aren't narcissists, etc. And I do have sympathy. Nobody chooses to be a narcissist. I think some people are just wired that way, or perhaps set on that course by environmental factors early in life. Either way, it's not a choice. So I think it's somewhat of a tragic condition. My advice would be that if you're consistently getting negative feedback about your personality traits, take it seriously. It'll be tempting to deny and seek disconfirmation, e.g. by changing the subject, blaming your accusers, deflecting to other causes (e.g. race or gender), or running away to find people who will say nice things about you. But for all our follies, human beings are naturally pretty decent judges of character. If you're getting consistent character feedback from lots of different people, it's probably accurate.

xyzelement 6y ago
I found the clarity of your thinking and writing refreshing, it's rare for someone to observe and recognize these archetypes. I by and large agree with how you see it. One thing jumped out: >> I think some people are just wired that way, or perhaps set on that course by environmental factors early in life. Either way, it's not a choice. So I think it's somewhat of a tragic condition. and >> My advice would be that if you're consistently getting negative feedback about personality traits from others, take it seriously. If you think about it these two comments are contradictory. Either you are a victim of your programming, or you have the power to (slowly and painfully) recognize it and change. I am a firm believer that people ultimately can recognize their problems and change. Recognition is the harder part. For most of us, to recognize the really deep and ugly things about ourselves is really hard and often is only done when someone has hit bottom and are forced to confront that there's something wrong. It's easy to say "listen to feedback" but it's impossible to convince someone they should until they've had some painful experience that forced them to recognize there's something that needs to be heard. But it's possible and important. The other thought as I was reading your comment - I think you'll enjoy Ray Dalio's Principles book.

raducu 6y ago

Is that what stoics really taught or a modern misrepresentation, like "cynic"?

DarthGhandi 6y ago
The stoics came from the school of cynicism originally in Greek philosophy and were heavily influenced by it in the early days.
ghgr 6y ago
It's a modern misrepresentation. In fact, Stoicism encourages to help your neighbor. From the Meditations by Marcus Aurelius: > [...] Do not be carried along inconsiderately by the appearance of things, but give help to all according to thy ability and their fitness [...] (Book V) > [...] Reverence the gods, and help men. Short is life. There is only one fruit of this terrene life, a pious disposition and social acts. [...] ( Book VI ) You can read the full ebook here [1] (I'd link to project Gutenberg but unfortunately they're still blocking German readers). Alas. [1] https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditations/george-long/text/single-page https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/marcus-aurelius/meditation...

laurent92 6y ago

You forgot one kind of generosity called « Actual experience »: The « I have been decently generous most of my life(1), and yet, when I had a need, no-one wanted to care much (you know, who cares about a white male, we want fewer of them in our company) so now I default to buying pure mercure on Alibaba and throwing it into the lake » kind of generosity. If all of those speeches about generosity and inclusivity were remotely honest, I wouldn’t have to fight people who claim equality is giving an interesting job only to women. Also, no need to propose one now, I’m fat and suicidal and down a dozen social steps. (1) $13.000 up to 32 years old, on top of normal taxes which are already supposed to solve poverty here in France.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
xyzelement 6y ago
Laurent, this sounds dismal and I am sorry. What you talk about in paragraph one is a real thing - there are plenty of people who are your friends when everything is great but fade when you need a little bit of help (even if you're not even asking them for it.) I experienced that recently, it's really disappointing. But I also experienced a surprising amount of help from people I wasn't even close to and it was just a reminder to me to default to be that kind of person. That's actually what inspired my original post. About your paragraph two, I kinda agree - there's a big divide between people who talk a big game about inclusivity etc and those who quietly practice it as a matter of principle. Anyway, for what it's worth I hope things turn better for you, and I just want to say that destructiveness and self-destructiveness aren't going to help anything.
nicbou 6y ago
If you treat generosity as a form of investment, you are bound to be disappointed. I see it as a small contribution to a better world. If you want something back, ask for money and call it a job.

trianglem 6y ago

How about don’t mind helping but don’t really want to start a network effect of mutual back and forth because I don’t want to give up my time doing these things and get caught up in reciprocal network chains.

dahart 6y ago

I think there is a whole lot of anthropological and economic thinking on roles that you haven’t covered. For example gift giving can be a role people use to indicate status, and/or caretaking of a local community. Giving comes with, some people argue, complex social relationships. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

appleflaxen 6y ago

That's not what stoicism is. Stoicism has more to do with things that happen to you vs how you treat other people. It's great that you disclaim it a bit with "can't think of a better word", but it's just inaccurate. Perhaps "libertarian"? Or "rugged individualist"?