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I don't think that you are interpreting these images correctly (but the screenshots do not indicate the viewing direction, so it's not your fault). The objects

I don't think that you are interpreting these images correctly (but the screenshots do not indicate the viewing direction, so it's not your fault). The objects that you see "through the roof" may be in front of the building, not inside. Radar imaging is based on the return time of a chirp to the antenna. If two objects appear on the same pixel in the image it means that they are at the same distance to the antenna. For example, if the sensor is at a (common) elevation of 45 degrees, a 10m vertical wall will seem to cover the 10m of ground next to it, and any object there will be superimposed with the roof of the building. EDIT: I have some professional experience with the interpretation of satellite SAR imagery.

jcims 6y ago
You're right I probably blew it with that one. I found the building on google maps and there's no cars there. BUT! What do you think about this one? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482504
rmrfstar 6y ago
They should open up a rate-limited retail API that lets us verify for ourselves what is visible in our life and what is not. Otherwise we have to outsource our thinking to others who may have a conflict of interest.
- jcims 6y ago
  I like this idea. There's already sales channels for this, they would just be another imaging provider.
- notahacker 6y ago
  Many high value commercial applications of ultra high resolution SAR only involve small areas of land and irregular periods Ultimately satellite providers don't have any more obligation to subsidise access to their services to people wishing to verify for themselves that the product doesn't contradict the laws of physics than 5G providers or microchip providers.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - rmrfstar 6y ago
    Complex systems produce behavior that cannot be derived from first principles, which is why it is important to study the actual behavior of those systems. I studied E&M for four semesters at college, and it is far from clear to me that "the laws of physics" foreclose the possibility of this system unearthing new personal information about my patterns of life. You might want to question your own confidence once in a while. Unless you independently predicted rowhammer, spectre, and meltdown.
avianlyric 6y ago
Looking at the article, these images, a s your description of what happening. I get the impression that the imaging radar has no angular resolution, the only thing it captures is time of flight of the radar signal from chirp to return, and that this data is a very thin beam, 50 cm wide in this case. So when the data is visualised, the perspective in the SAR image is actually 90deg offset from the imagining direction. This is done because the collected data only contains distance, rather than distance and angle (which you would get with LiDAR). So places where building look transparent are caused by the fact that visualisation perspective is different to the imagining perspective. In an image that appears to have been taken with the camera south of a target, it was actually imaged from the north (this is a simplification). So you will always get overlapping data, because the imaging and apparent visualisation perspectives are different. And the reason for not aligning the perspectives is because there isn’t actually enough data to do that (no return or transmission angle is collected along side the distance data). It’s important to note that I say “apparent” perspective. Because the imaging perspective doesn’t actually change, I think the perspective change is caused by our brains recognising shapes, and computing a perspective angle. But this angle is actually incorrect because the RADAR imaging process is completely different to how our eyes work. For those still confused about this. Try thinking about how the shadows are being cast, they’re not from the sun, and likely the only thing admitting radar signals to “illuminate” objects is the satellite emitting the RADAR chirps, and also doing the imaging. Could someone tell me if I’ve got this right?
- jcims 6y ago
  That's the same conclusion I'm coming to. In the golf course image I think the imager is actually where the sun appears to be based on shadows and perspective. The 'evidence' I'm looking at that the imager can see through the roof may just be in open view of the imager and we're just seeing retroreflections from the corners of the window. So i guess they take a lateral sweep of the image and let the return fill in the other axis of the image?
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > So i guess they take a lateral sweep of the image and let the return fill in the other axis of the image? Exactly. Notice also that there is no "sun", these images may be taken at night or through the clouds, as far as you know. The "shadows" that you see are parts inaccessible from the radar beam itself.

jcims 6y ago

You're right I probably blew it with that one. I found the building on google maps and there's no cars there. BUT! What do you think about this one? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25482504

rmrfstar 6y ago

They should open up a rate-limited retail API that lets us verify for ourselves what is visible in our life and what is not. Otherwise we have to outsource our thinking to others who may have a conflict of interest.

jcims 6y ago
I like this idea. There's already sales channels for this, they would just be another imaging provider.
notahacker 6y ago
Many high value commercial applications of ultra high resolution SAR only involve small areas of land and irregular periods Ultimately satellite providers don't have any more obligation to subsidise access to their services to people wishing to verify for themselves that the product doesn't contradict the laws of physics than 5G providers or microchip providers.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- rmrfstar 6y ago
  Complex systems produce behavior that cannot be derived from first principles, which is why it is important to study the actual behavior of those systems. I studied E&M for four semesters at college, and it is far from clear to me that "the laws of physics" foreclose the possibility of this system unearthing new personal information about my patterns of life. You might want to question your own confidence once in a while. Unless you independently predicted rowhammer, spectre, and meltdown.

avianlyric 6y ago

Looking at the article, these images, a s your description of what happening. I get the impression that the imaging radar has no angular resolution, the only thing it captures is time of flight of the radar signal from chirp to return, and that this data is a very thin beam, 50 cm wide in this case. So when the data is visualised, the perspective in the SAR image is actually 90deg offset from the imagining direction. This is done because the collected data only contains distance, rather than distance and angle (which you would get with LiDAR). So places where building look transparent are caused by the fact that visualisation perspective is different to the imagining perspective. In an image that appears to have been taken with the camera south of a target, it was actually imaged from the north (this is a simplification). So you will always get overlapping data, because the imaging and apparent visualisation perspectives are different. And the reason for not aligning the perspectives is because there isn’t actually enough data to do that (no return or transmission angle is collected along side the distance data). It’s important to note that I say “apparent” perspective. Because the imaging perspective doesn’t actually change, I think the perspective change is caused by our brains recognising shapes, and computing a perspective angle. But this angle is actually incorrect because the RADAR imaging process is completely different to how our eyes work. For those still confused about this. Try thinking about how the shadows are being cast, they’re not from the sun, and likely the only thing admitting radar signals to “illuminate” objects is the satellite emitting the RADAR chirps, and also doing the imaging. Could someone tell me if I’ve got this right?

jcims 6y ago
That's the same conclusion I'm coming to. In the golf course image I think the imager is actually where the sun appears to be based on shadows and perspective. The 'evidence' I'm looking at that the imager can see through the roof may just be in open view of the imager and we're just seeing retroreflections from the corners of the window. So i guess they take a lateral sweep of the image and let the return fill in the other axis of the image?
- enriquto 6y ago
  > So i guess they take a lateral sweep of the image and let the return fill in the other axis of the image? Exactly. Notice also that there is no "sun", these images may be taken at night or through the clouds, as far as you know. The "shadows" that you see are parts inaccessible from the radar beam itself.