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> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encounter

> Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It's not uncommon for post-docs spending months looking for their next job, and usually, their advisors are fine with that. They understand well the difficulties of their students or post-docs. Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, not because professors are some kind of bullies harassing their students. I'm certain it exists but it's far from the norm. It's competitive because you're competing with the whole world, and there are some people out there who are much smarter than you. And you are constantly reminded of this fact, when you go to a conference (or because you don't get to go because your paper isn't accepted), when you read your colleague's paper and so on. I've worked with well-known people (including a Turing award recipient), and even them were insecure at times. And of course, it's hard because you don't know if you'll find a job after your current post-doc. The more average you are, the more insecurity, the harder it gets.

angrais 6y ago
>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their manager is often the bully. In addition, you're likely in a position of power since you've been in academy for 15+ years ... It could be that you do not interact with certain circles to observe this behaviour. Also, discrimination, particularly sexism also very much occurs, including to students. See for for example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2020/jan/07/third-cambridge-university-staff-experienced-bullying https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2...
- yodsanklai 6y ago
  > but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving I'm sure it exists. I may be wrong since it's based on personal experience, but I can't believe it's thriving (at least, in my field, computer science). These things are taken more and more seriously. If anything, I can only imagine they occur less and less frequently.
  - angrais 6y ago
    In my experience, and that of my colleagues within a UK institution, also in computer science, the university does indeed take it seriously. We've had external auditors come in and ultimately do nothing. The problem is that the university is setup to protect itself when such reports are made, so rarely is anyone fired or such. It's a much worse situation for the student than academic.
    - physicsguy 6y ago
      I live in the U.K. and did my PhD in a big department. A friend of mine got cancer and then was told by his supervisor after he returned that he wasn’t good enough anymore and he should quit. He found a new supervisor and is now doing fine. A female colleague did her PhD in Sweden and got hit on by her supervisor who kept staring at her chest every meeting, and eventually led to her leaving academia entirely. That’s a minority of people I know working in academia but it’s not small.
  - AuthorizedCust 6y ago
    It’s not thriving in computer science because that field is competing against a tight supply of labor. Compare that to a field where you have an oversupply of PhDs, and I’m sure you’ll find different average experiences.
    - angrais 6y ago
      I'm not sure how you're making the connection between competition within labour markets leading to less bullying? The research field may not be that relevant when it comes to bullying as it is prevalent across fields.
foldr 6y ago
>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect of this is that it enables me to take a rational view of how attractive these prestige jobs really are. And there are limits on what Google can demand of its engineers because they all have other options. Academia these days is competitive in about the same way as gladiatorial combat.
- yodsanklai 6y ago
  > The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. I agree but only to some extent. First, there are many research institutions in the world. The same way there is more than one software company. They are not all equally selective and prestigious. There are also a lot of companies doing R&D. It may not be academic research, but it can also be pretty cool. In that sense, not getting an academic position isn't the end of the world. Even if it may seem so from the perspective of a post doc.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. But of course everyone thinks they deserve a place at the top of the totem pole and anything less prestigious is a catastrophe. It's understandable. Many were always the top or one of the top kids in class or in school, won various local competitions but then it comes to competing against everyone across the globe and suddenly the story changes and it's no longer automatic and a given that you are at the top. It's a cold shower to many.
    - foldr 6y ago
      >Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. This is a bit of a misconception. Even if you're willing to take any tenure-track job anywhere, the odds are still against you. There are simply far fewer tenure-track jobs per year than there are graduating PhD students.

angrais 6y ago

>> I've never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries). Great to hear that you've not encountered bullying in the academy, but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving. Often when it occurs, the university will side with the academic rather than postdoc or PhD students, which puts them in an extremely difficult situation since their manager is often the bully. In addition, you're likely in a position of power since you've been in academy for 15+ years ... It could be that you do not interact with certain circles to observe this behaviour. Also, discrimination, particularly sexism also very much occurs, including to students. See for for example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2020/jan/07/third-cambridge-university-staff-experienced-bullying https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2...

yodsanklai 6y ago
> but it absolutely does exist and is unfortunately thriving I'm sure it exists. I may be wrong since it's based on personal experience, but I can't believe it's thriving (at least, in my field, computer science). These things are taken more and more seriously. If anything, I can only imagine they occur less and less frequently.
- angrais 6y ago
  In my experience, and that of my colleagues within a UK institution, also in computer science, the university does indeed take it seriously. We've had external auditors come in and ultimately do nothing. The problem is that the university is setup to protect itself when such reports are made, so rarely is anyone fired or such. It's a much worse situation for the student than academic.
  - physicsguy 6y ago
    I live in the U.K. and did my PhD in a big department. A friend of mine got cancer and then was told by his supervisor after he returned that he wasn’t good enough anymore and he should quit. He found a new supervisor and is now doing fine. A female colleague did her PhD in Sweden and got hit on by her supervisor who kept staring at her chest every meeting, and eventually led to her leaving academia entirely. That’s a minority of people I know working in academia but it’s not small.
- AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  It’s not thriving in computer science because that field is competing against a tight supply of labor. Compare that to a field where you have an oversupply of PhDs, and I’m sure you’ll find different average experiences.
  - angrais 6y ago
    I'm not sure how you're making the connection between competition within labour markets leading to less bullying? The research field may not be that relevant when it comes to bullying as it is prevalent across fields.

foldr 6y ago

>Academia is hard because it's extremely competitive, The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. Now that I'm outside academia, there's plenty of competition. For example, getting a good job at Google is just as competitive as getting a tenure-track position. The difference is that I can easily get a respectable job that pays the bills if I don't make the cut for Google. A nice side effect of this is that it enables me to take a rational view of how attractive these prestige jobs really are. And there are limits on what Google can demand of its engineers because they all have other options. Academia these days is competitive in about the same way as gladiatorial combat.

yodsanklai 6y ago
> The issue isn't the level of competitiveness but the cost of losing. I agree but only to some extent. First, there are many research institutions in the world. The same way there is more than one software company. They are not all equally selective and prestigious. There are also a lot of companies doing R&D. It may not be academic research, but it can also be pretty cool. In that sense, not getting an academic position isn't the end of the world. Even if it may seem so from the perspective of a post doc.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. But of course everyone thinks they deserve a place at the top of the totem pole and anything less prestigious is a catastrophe. It's understandable. Many were always the top or one of the top kids in class or in school, won various local competitions but then it comes to competing against everyone across the globe and suddenly the story changes and it's no longer automatic and a given that you are at the top. It's a cold shower to many.
  - foldr 6y ago
    >Yep, you can probably get a position at some backwater university that will pay (in the rich Western World) still enough to live a "normal" life. This is a bit of a misconception. Even if you're willing to take any tenure-track job anywhere, the odds are still against you. There are simply far fewer tenure-track jobs per year than there are graduating PhD students.