4 ms·

> Email is extremely non-brittle, and everyone following the RFC is one main way it is able to be non-brittle. What is naive here, is that you think things are

by growse 6y ago

> Email is extremely non-brittle, and everyone following the RFC is one main way it is able to be non-brittle. What is naive here, is that you think things are the way there are, for no reason. > Mail is decades old, built upon millions of hours of work crafting software, RFC standards, and works the way it does, including bounces, to ensure stability. Same people argue that email is a hot mess exactly because it's decades old and comprised of a patchwork of standards. It's not exactly the poster child of how to do this sort of thing well. > For a mail system to respond with 5xx, when it is internally broken, is 100% a configuration issue. Every MTA on the planet, is designed (eg, postfix, sendmail, etc) to respond with a 4xx TEMP fail message if something is borked. A milter gone bad. A library missing. A full disk. A config issue. An issue forking. Memory limits. All of it. Configuration issues can be, and often are, temporary. Also, bugs are a thing. > THAT is where the "good engineering" failed. I agree with this. > What you want to do is make 5xx like 4xx, because you feel there should never be any way for a SMTP server to say "No, really, this email address doesn't exist.. don't bother trying again". Of course there's a semantic difference between "come back later" and "go away forever", I'm just arguing that a client that doesn't blindly trust what every connected system tells it is going to more often successfully achieve its goals than one which does.

jimmydorry 6y ago
If you hosted a mail server, would you really want an ever increasing number of mail servers hitting your mail server for invalid email addressess for an indeterminate period of time? The 5xx error code you are returning can't be trusted, after all. That seems to be what you are advocating for.
bbarnett 6y ago
Same people argue that email is a hot mess You're lumping together "email content" with "SMTP". SMTP isn't a "patchwork of standards", it has a very specific RFC for it. SMTP works very, very, very well. Configuration issues can be, and often are, temporary. Also, bugs are a thing. This isn't just "a bug" or "a config issue", this is an edge case bug or config issue. I've handled literally hundreds of thousands of mail servers in high avail production, with some of those being extremely high volume. What you're wanting to change the normal flow of operation, for an extremely rare edge case. Of course there's a semantic difference between "come back later" and "go away forever", I'm just arguing that a client that doesn't blindly trust what every connected system tells it is going to more often successfully achieve its goals than one which does. Not true here. In 99.999999% of cases when you get a 5xx response code, the correct thing to do is immediate bounce. This sort of mess, 5xx 'by accident', is insanely rare. And it's not 'go away forever', it's "this specific mail cannot be delivered, please return it to sender, so they can examine the issue and deal with it". It's "bring a human into the equation". How is this an issue? For something which is very, very rare.
- ascar 6y ago
  > And it's not 'go away forever', it's "this specific mail cannot be delivered, please return it to sender, so they can examine the issue and deal with it". > > It's "bring a human into the equation". > > How is this an issue? For something which is very, very rare. You apparently missed the whole point of newsletters automatically unsubscribing users on a 5xx error from the previous discussion that the topmost comment was referring to. Not that you are to blame for missing that because it wasn't restated here, but that's the context of the whole discussion. In this context I also heavily disagree with your statements and agree that among other examples automatically unsubscribing to a single "permanent" error is a brittle system. If I have sent emails successfully to a certain email address before it is not wise to assume a permanent error on a single response that the RFC specifies as permanent. Email/SMTP is in it's core a stateless protocol, but as a mailing list service I can keep state and provide additional context to errors that can improve my service. Finally, if you read the RFC 5321 4.2.1. Reply Code Severities and Theory it specifically uses "SHOULD NOT" instead of "MUST NOT" implying that there might be valid scenarios to act differently. RFC 2119: > SHOULD NOT This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing any behavior described with this label.
  - bbarnett 6y ago
    You apparently missed the whole point of newsletters automatically unsubscribing users on a 5xx error from the previous discussion There was no previous discussion / topmost thread, as I replied directly to the topmost comment, and this thread forks from that. No mention was made of newsletter unsubscribes thread upwards. Further, I made it quite clear I was discussing SMTP response codes, and not the article directly. Ergo, your stated context, isn't the context of this whole thread/discussion. Further, from what I see, everyone in this thread is discussing MTAs, SMTP, SMTP return codes. that the topmost comment was referring to. Not that you are to blame for missing that because it wasn't restated here, but that's the context of the whole discussion. No, it isn't the context of this thread/discussion, as per above. If I have sent emails successfully to a certain email address before it is not wise to assume a permanent error on a single response that the RFC specifies as permanent. Email/SMTP is in it's core a stateless protocol, but as a mailing list service I can keep state and provide additional context to errors that can improve my service. In the context of the RFC, mailing list software should be viewed the same as a 'human being'. Of course it's fine to it to re-send, if the software wishes. Just like it is fine for you to send a mail with your mail client, get a 5xx, and re-try by clicking 'send' once again. (5xx errors can happen during auth/etc stages too) However, during this entire thread I've have been peppering the words 'MTA', "smtp server', 'bounce' and more. Note that the mailing list software you're describing, is receiving a bounce. Bounces only happen from the MTA side. EG, mailing list software doesn't "bounce" anything, ever. Only an MTA does. Without that bounce, most mailing list software won't even know there is an issue. Others upthread were advocating that MTAs don't bounce on an initial 5xx failure, regardless of my assertions that the client/end user should receive an immediate 5xx perm failure message. Whether a human, or some automated software, as per my upstream statements, the proper thing to do is bounce back to the sender. 5xx, bounce, return. In 99.9999999% of cases, this is what is needed. This is the majority case. Then, the mailing list software, the end user, can do as they wish. Including trying a resend. I don't see the conflict here, except it's apparent that a lot of people don't have much in the way of MTA experience. That's not even a knock on them, but it is a bit disheartening to see people suggesting massive MTA behaviour/RFC alteration for no reason. To speak to mailing list behaviour, as a separate issue from above, repeated hits to 5xx targets will get you blacklisted faster than you can imagine. It's the equivalent of knocking on someone's door, them answering and saying "Sorry, Bob moved out", but you come back all day and night, banging on the door "HEY IS BOB THERE?!" Yeah. That'll work out well. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you even remotely should.

by growse 6y ago

jimmydorry 6y ago

If you hosted a mail server, would you really want an ever increasing number of mail servers hitting your mail server for invalid email addressess for an indeterminate period of time? The 5xx error code you are returning can't be trusted, after all. That seems to be what you are advocating for.

bbarnett 6y ago

Same people argue that email is a hot mess You're lumping together "email content" with "SMTP". SMTP isn't a "patchwork of standards", it has a very specific RFC for it. SMTP works very, very, very well. Configuration issues can be, and often are, temporary. Also, bugs are a thing. This isn't just "a bug" or "a config issue", this is an edge case bug or config issue. I've handled literally hundreds of thousands of mail servers in high avail production, with some of those being extremely high volume. What you're wanting to change the normal flow of operation, for an extremely rare edge case. Of course there's a semantic difference between "come back later" and "go away forever", I'm just arguing that a client that doesn't blindly trust what every connected system tells it is going to more often successfully achieve its goals than one which does. Not true here. In 99.999999% of cases when you get a 5xx response code, the correct thing to do is immediate bounce. This sort of mess, 5xx 'by accident', is insanely rare. And it's not 'go away forever', it's "this specific mail cannot be delivered, please return it to sender, so they can examine the issue and deal with it". It's "bring a human into the equation". How is this an issue? For something which is very, very rare.

ascar 6y ago
> And it's not 'go away forever', it's "this specific mail cannot be delivered, please return it to sender, so they can examine the issue and deal with it". > > It's "bring a human into the equation". > > How is this an issue? For something which is very, very rare. You apparently missed the whole point of newsletters automatically unsubscribing users on a 5xx error from the previous discussion that the topmost comment was referring to. Not that you are to blame for missing that because it wasn't restated here, but that's the context of the whole discussion. In this context I also heavily disagree with your statements and agree that among other examples automatically unsubscribing to a single "permanent" error is a brittle system. If I have sent emails successfully to a certain email address before it is not wise to assume a permanent error on a single response that the RFC specifies as permanent. Email/SMTP is in it's core a stateless protocol, but as a mailing list service I can keep state and provide additional context to errors that can improve my service. Finally, if you read the RFC 5321 4.2.1. Reply Code Severities and Theory it specifically uses "SHOULD NOT" instead of "MUST NOT" implying that there might be valid scenarios to act differently. RFC 2119: > SHOULD NOT This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing any behavior described with this label.
- bbarnett 6y ago
  You apparently missed the whole point of newsletters automatically unsubscribing users on a 5xx error from the previous discussion There was no previous discussion / topmost thread, as I replied directly to the topmost comment, and this thread forks from that. No mention was made of newsletter unsubscribes thread upwards. Further, I made it quite clear I was discussing SMTP response codes, and not the article directly. Ergo, your stated context, isn't the context of this whole thread/discussion. Further, from what I see, everyone in this thread is discussing MTAs, SMTP, SMTP return codes. that the topmost comment was referring to. Not that you are to blame for missing that because it wasn't restated here, but that's the context of the whole discussion. No, it isn't the context of this thread/discussion, as per above. If I have sent emails successfully to a certain email address before it is not wise to assume a permanent error on a single response that the RFC specifies as permanent. Email/SMTP is in it's core a stateless protocol, but as a mailing list service I can keep state and provide additional context to errors that can improve my service. In the context of the RFC, mailing list software should be viewed the same as a 'human being'. Of course it's fine to it to re-send, if the software wishes. Just like it is fine for you to send a mail with your mail client, get a 5xx, and re-try by clicking 'send' once again. (5xx errors can happen during auth/etc stages too) However, during this entire thread I've have been peppering the words 'MTA', "smtp server', 'bounce' and more. Note that the mailing list software you're describing, is receiving a bounce. Bounces only happen from the MTA side. EG, mailing list software doesn't "bounce" anything, ever. Only an MTA does. Without that bounce, most mailing list software won't even know there is an issue. Others upthread were advocating that MTAs don't bounce on an initial 5xx failure, regardless of my assertions that the client/end user should receive an immediate 5xx perm failure message. Whether a human, or some automated software, as per my upstream statements, the proper thing to do is bounce back to the sender. 5xx, bounce, return. In 99.9999999% of cases, this is what is needed. This is the majority case. Then, the mailing list software, the end user, can do as they wish. Including trying a resend. I don't see the conflict here, except it's apparent that a lot of people don't have much in the way of MTA experience. That's not even a knock on them, but it is a bit disheartening to see people suggesting massive MTA behaviour/RFC alteration for no reason. To speak to mailing list behaviour, as a separate issue from above, repeated hits to 5xx targets will get you blacklisted faster than you can imagine. It's the equivalent of knocking on someone's door, them answering and saying "Sorry, Bob moved out", but you come back all day and night, banging on the door "HEY IS BOB THERE?!" Yeah. That'll work out well. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you even remotely should.