3 ms·

My dad just had a similar surgery in the shoulder; I'm not sure whether to send him this! There's no sense making the placebo effect less effective, or even red

My dad just had a similar surgery in the shoulder; I'm not sure whether to send him this! There's no sense making the placebo effect less effective, or even reducing the efficacy of a useful surgery with the nocebo effect. In his case, there was a golf-ball-sized "something" that they had to cut up into pieces to remove. So hopefully that's a real improvement, along with the debridement that they went in there to do.

podiki 6y ago
If he's feeling better and doing well, why mess with a good thing! There's definitely a range of issues people have, and probably an over prescribing of treatment generally, which can make some of these broader studies harder to interpret (as pointed out in the article). If I had something that big basically anywhere it's not supposed to be, I think I'd be happier with it gone. In any event, hope your dad keeps feeling better!
- crawfordcomeaux 6y ago
  The reason for sharing recovery could be largely placebo driven is because it empowers the patient by revealing a previously unknown skill they can develop. Studies are showing that "open placebos," which is when the patient knows it's a placebo, can work even better than when the patient doesn't know. Choosing one's own beliefs with deep intention and choosing to pick them up or put them down quickly are skills for improving both learning and healing. Withholding opportunities to develop these skills from people denies their need for autonomy and efficacy in their healing. I would ask him if he wants to know of anything simple that can boost his recovery. I would also propose he prepare to mourn many losses immediately after, since there's possibly a lot of opportunity for regret when someone learns so much of the things they've done in their lives may have been unnecessary and within their power to heal from. Some people can get stuck in grieving/regret and this slows the healing process down, so I consider it important to learn to grieve efficiently for quick healing.
  - ouid 6y ago
    >Studies are showing that "open placebos," which is when the patient knows it's a placebo, can work even better than when the patient doesn't know. Yeah, but are those studies RCTs?
    - crawfordcomeaux 6y ago
      A cursory search on google for "RCT open placebo" suggests some of them are. Here's one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29513699/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29513699/ What I find fun is that it's something I can simply experiment on myself with to find out for myself. After all, by the time I learned about open placebos, I'd already spent years healing without knowing about the effect. As a result, I'm already my own blind study. It may not bring certainty, but if I really wanted certainty, I'd be working on a device to transport myself to the parallel universe where everything operates purely on certainty, rather than this one that's more likely built on uncertainty. I'm choosing to embrace uncertainty and subjectivity, instead of chasing certainty and objectivity. Science without subjectivity is science denial of the subjective nature of the observers, anyway. I choose to meet all needs while denying none. Also, RCTs aren't the only tool for studying the subjective and sometimes aren't even available due to the subjective nature of placebos. With regard to psychedelic healing, for instance, it's impossible to keep from learning who's taken the placebo. This will likely be the case until people develop the skills related to tripping without drugs, assuming that's a skill available to us, which I think is worth choosing to believe in. I'm saying this because I've noticed a culture of RCT dependency growing, where someone will choose to withhold believing in something if there isn't what they deem to be sufficient RCT-based evidence available to them. This is a type of bias that distracts from the power of placebos, which is we can choose to believe in anything simply because it is useful to us and allows us to see more potential paths forward to consider.
antasvara 6y ago
This article [1] was interesting to me and applies directly to your situation. Essentially, knowing that something is a placebo doesn't necessarily decrease the effects of the treatment. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-kn...

podiki 6y ago

If he's feeling better and doing well, why mess with a good thing! There's definitely a range of issues people have, and probably an over prescribing of treatment generally, which can make some of these broader studies harder to interpret (as pointed out in the article). If I had something that big basically anywhere it's not supposed to be, I think I'd be happier with it gone. In any event, hope your dad keeps feeling better!

crawfordcomeaux 6y ago
The reason for sharing recovery could be largely placebo driven is because it empowers the patient by revealing a previously unknown skill they can develop. Studies are showing that "open placebos," which is when the patient knows it's a placebo, can work even better than when the patient doesn't know. Choosing one's own beliefs with deep intention and choosing to pick them up or put them down quickly are skills for improving both learning and healing. Withholding opportunities to develop these skills from people denies their need for autonomy and efficacy in their healing. I would ask him if he wants to know of anything simple that can boost his recovery. I would also propose he prepare to mourn many losses immediately after, since there's possibly a lot of opportunity for regret when someone learns so much of the things they've done in their lives may have been unnecessary and within their power to heal from. Some people can get stuck in grieving/regret and this slows the healing process down, so I consider it important to learn to grieve efficiently for quick healing.
- ouid 6y ago
  >Studies are showing that "open placebos," which is when the patient knows it's a placebo, can work even better than when the patient doesn't know. Yeah, but are those studies RCTs?
  - crawfordcomeaux 6y ago
    A cursory search on google for "RCT open placebo" suggests some of them are. Here's one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29513699/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29513699/ What I find fun is that it's something I can simply experiment on myself with to find out for myself. After all, by the time I learned about open placebos, I'd already spent years healing without knowing about the effect. As a result, I'm already my own blind study. It may not bring certainty, but if I really wanted certainty, I'd be working on a device to transport myself to the parallel universe where everything operates purely on certainty, rather than this one that's more likely built on uncertainty. I'm choosing to embrace uncertainty and subjectivity, instead of chasing certainty and objectivity. Science without subjectivity is science denial of the subjective nature of the observers, anyway. I choose to meet all needs while denying none. Also, RCTs aren't the only tool for studying the subjective and sometimes aren't even available due to the subjective nature of placebos. With regard to psychedelic healing, for instance, it's impossible to keep from learning who's taken the placebo. This will likely be the case until people develop the skills related to tripping without drugs, assuming that's a skill available to us, which I think is worth choosing to believe in. I'm saying this because I've noticed a culture of RCT dependency growing, where someone will choose to withhold believing in something if there isn't what they deem to be sufficient RCT-based evidence available to them. This is a type of bias that distracts from the power of placebos, which is we can choose to believe in anything simply because it is useful to us and allows us to see more potential paths forward to consider.

antasvara 6y ago

This article [1] was interesting to me and applies directly to your situation. Essentially, knowing that something is a placebo doesn't necessarily decrease the effects of the treatment. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-kn...