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Huge aside but... if you like Tolstoy and Shakespeare reading Tolstoy's take down of Shakespeare is super interesting: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on

Huge aside but... if you like Tolstoy and Shakespeare reading Tolstoy's take down of Shakespeare is super interesting: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare He specifically goes to town on King Lear and gets into some interesting discussions on how he thinks the earlier Lear Shakespeare referenced is structurally better. Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he feels Shakespeare failed at, as if Shakespeare had a morality it was "people should be good, but not too good"

tehnub 6y ago
Also interesting is George Orwell's critique of Tolstoy's critique! https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lear/english/e_ltf https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lear/english/e_ltf
- svat 6y ago
  Wow this is great, thank you! As someone with a reasonably positive opinion of all three here (Shakespeare, Tolstoy, and Orwell), I must say Orwell's clarity is remarkable. > It is a mistake to write Tolstoy off as a moralist attacking an artist. […] But his main aim, in his later years, was to narrow the range of human consciousness. One's interests, one's points of attachment to the physical world and the day-to-day struggle, must be as few and not as many as possible. […] Indeed his whole theory of ‘crazes’ or ‘epidemic suggestions’, in which he lumps together such things as the Crusades and the Dutch passion of tulip growing, shows a willingness to regard many human activities as mere ant-like rushings to and fro, inexplicable and uninteresting. Clearly he could have no patience with a chaotic, detailed, discursive writer like Shakespeare. His reaction is that of an irritable old man who is being pestered by a noisy child. ‘Why do you keep jumping up and down like that? Why can't you sit still like I do?’ In a way the old man is in the right, but the trouble is that the child, has a feeling in its limbs which the old man has lost. And if the old man knows of the existence of this feeling, the effect is merely to increase his irritation: he would make children senile, if he could. His perception of King Lear's true moral, of Tolstoy (or Gandhi) as “saint”, and of “creeds […] which seem on the surface to imply a complete renunciation of power” — in all of this Orwell hits the nail on the head IMO.
  - JNRowe 6y ago
    Dorian Lynskey's Orwell biography The Ministry of Truth spends a chunk of its time on interactions between Huxley, Wells and Orwell. I found much of that fascinating, picturing these esteemed authors critiquing each others works(sometimes over supper). Full recommendation for the book, even if only for the Zamyatin chapter collapsing everyone from Rand to George Lucas in to twenty pages or so.
- pixl97 6y ago
  Glad you posted that. >It is doubtful whether the sense of tragedy is compatible with belief in God I understand politics better already.
voldacar 6y ago
I haven't read a ton of Tolstoy but that looks super interesting, thanks
InvisibleCities 6y ago
> Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he feels Shakespeare failed at, as if Shakespeare had a morality it was "people should be good, but not too good" I couldn't agree more, which is why I like Shakespeare so much better than Tolstoy.
- briefcomment 6y ago
  We need more writing where people are the best they can be. Imagine the good Shakespeare could have done by making his characters the best role models. People imitate, and Shakespeare has incredible reach. As I get older, I have little patience for flawed characters, and love it when I see someone act good all the time in fiction. Edit: Tintin, for example, is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. He is smart, athletic, capable, dependable, and, most importantly, always acts in good faith.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    I get that, and it's a challenge for me as a Shakespeare actor and director. I often work with these "flawed" characters, and early in the process there's this question of "do I really want to tell the story about this person?" I've got only limited patience for people being stupid and/or mean. Can't we tell stories about good and smart people? Those stories exist, but they're depressingly rare. I have ways of turning Shakespeare's text into a story that I think you will want to hear. Or at least, trying to. It's the hard part of my job as an artist.
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      > I've got only limited patience for people being stupid and/or mean. Can't we tell stories about good and smart people? Those stories exist, but they're depressingly rare. I don't think there are good or bad people. Every person contains both within them.
    - dylan604 6y ago
      Stories like that tend to go campy and obvious Hollywood happy endings. Life isn't like that. The good guy rarely wins for being good.
voidhorse 6y ago
To add to the Tolstoy connections being accounted here: in Knut Hamsun’s novel Mysteries there’s a page long diatribe by the protagonist ripping Tolstoy a new one for his incessant moralizing. It’s quite fun.
disown 6y ago
> Huge aside but... if you like Tolstoy and Shakespeare reading Tolstoy's take down of Shakespeare is super interesting: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare Holy shit. "... nevertheless I will endeavor, as well as I can, to show why I believe that Shakespeare can not be recognized either as a great genius, or even as an average author." Shakespeare isn't even an average author? Who knew Tolstoy was a grade A hater. Tolstoy is like a hater trying to convince you that Brady is an overrated below average system quarterback who lucked out in NE. I think Tolstoy missed where much of Shakespeare's greatness lay - his use and command of the english language. Not just coining words, but how he said so much with so little. Brevity is the soul of wit. Tolstoy seemed oddly focused on the morals and realism of shakespeare's works. My guess is that it was a language barrier. No matter how "fluent" Tolstoy was in english, it's hard to appreciate word play if english isn't your native language. But man, tolstoy would have loved social media. He would have fit right in. Haters for life.
- marricks 6y ago
  He brought up language barrier and re-read Shakespeare in multiple languages! It's a piping hot and interesting opinion!

tehnub 6y ago

Also interesting is George Orwell's critique of Tolstoy's critique! https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lear/english/e_ltf https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lear/english/e_ltf

svat 6y ago
Wow this is great, thank you! As someone with a reasonably positive opinion of all three here (Shakespeare, Tolstoy, and Orwell), I must say Orwell's clarity is remarkable. > It is a mistake to write Tolstoy off as a moralist attacking an artist. […] But his main aim, in his later years, was to narrow the range of human consciousness. One's interests, one's points of attachment to the physical world and the day-to-day struggle, must be as few and not as many as possible. […] Indeed his whole theory of ‘crazes’ or ‘epidemic suggestions’, in which he lumps together such things as the Crusades and the Dutch passion of tulip growing, shows a willingness to regard many human activities as mere ant-like rushings to and fro, inexplicable and uninteresting. Clearly he could have no patience with a chaotic, detailed, discursive writer like Shakespeare. His reaction is that of an irritable old man who is being pestered by a noisy child. ‘Why do you keep jumping up and down like that? Why can't you sit still like I do?’ In a way the old man is in the right, but the trouble is that the child, has a feeling in its limbs which the old man has lost. And if the old man knows of the existence of this feeling, the effect is merely to increase his irritation: he would make children senile, if he could. His perception of King Lear's true moral, of Tolstoy (or Gandhi) as “saint”, and of “creeds […] which seem on the surface to imply a complete renunciation of power” — in all of this Orwell hits the nail on the head IMO.
- JNRowe 6y ago
  Dorian Lynskey's Orwell biography The Ministry of Truth spends a chunk of its time on interactions between Huxley, Wells and Orwell. I found much of that fascinating, picturing these esteemed authors critiquing each others works(sometimes over supper). Full recommendation for the book, even if only for the Zamyatin chapter collapsing everyone from Rand to George Lucas in to twenty pages or so.
pixl97 6y ago
Glad you posted that. >It is doubtful whether the sense of tragedy is compatible with belief in God I understand politics better already.

voldacar 6y ago

I haven't read a ton of Tolstoy but that looks super interesting, thanks

InvisibleCities 6y ago

> Also reveals Tolstoy's own perspective on writing as a moral endeavor which he feels Shakespeare failed at, as if Shakespeare had a morality it was "people should be good, but not too good" I couldn't agree more, which is why I like Shakespeare so much better than Tolstoy.

briefcomment 6y ago
We need more writing where people are the best they can be. Imagine the good Shakespeare could have done by making his characters the best role models. People imitate, and Shakespeare has incredible reach. As I get older, I have little patience for flawed characters, and love it when I see someone act good all the time in fiction. Edit: Tintin, for example, is one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. He is smart, athletic, capable, dependable, and, most importantly, always acts in good faith.
- jfengel 6y ago
  I get that, and it's a challenge for me as a Shakespeare actor and director. I often work with these "flawed" characters, and early in the process there's this question of "do I really want to tell the story about this person?" I've got only limited patience for people being stupid and/or mean. Can't we tell stories about good and smart people? Those stories exist, but they're depressingly rare. I have ways of turning Shakespeare's text into a story that I think you will want to hear. Or at least, trying to. It's the hard part of my job as an artist.
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    > I've got only limited patience for people being stupid and/or mean. Can't we tell stories about good and smart people? Those stories exist, but they're depressingly rare. I don't think there are good or bad people. Every person contains both within them.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    Stories like that tend to go campy and obvious Hollywood happy endings. Life isn't like that. The good guy rarely wins for being good.

voidhorse 6y ago

To add to the Tolstoy connections being accounted here: in Knut Hamsun’s novel Mysteries there’s a page long diatribe by the protagonist ripping Tolstoy a new one for his incessant moralizing. It’s quite fun.

disown 6y ago

> Huge aside but... if you like Tolstoy and Shakespeare reading Tolstoy's take down of Shakespeare is super interesting: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Tolstoy_on_Shakespeare Holy shit. "... nevertheless I will endeavor, as well as I can, to show why I believe that Shakespeare can not be recognized either as a great genius, or even as an average author." Shakespeare isn't even an average author? Who knew Tolstoy was a grade A hater. Tolstoy is like a hater trying to convince you that Brady is an overrated below average system quarterback who lucked out in NE. I think Tolstoy missed where much of Shakespeare's greatness lay - his use and command of the english language. Not just coining words, but how he said so much with so little. Brevity is the soul of wit. Tolstoy seemed oddly focused on the morals and realism of shakespeare's works. My guess is that it was a language barrier. No matter how "fluent" Tolstoy was in english, it's hard to appreciate word play if english isn't your native language. But man, tolstoy would have loved social media. He would have fit right in. Haters for life.

marricks 6y ago
He brought up language barrier and re-read Shakespeare in multiple languages! It's a piping hot and interesting opinion!