4 ms·

I think the people arguing with you are simply stating that the judges who ruled that it is constitutional are _wrong_. It's a stance I agree with.

vmception 6y ago
if only there was a completely different branch of government we could get to limit how the courts could rule, if someone figures it out they should do it and make an article about it i might even write a comment about how thats the most effective way to change the reality, I wonder if people will read that part though, what do you think?
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  The Supreme Court occasionally overturns precedent.
- Felony_Fred 6y ago
  Turns out there seems to be some leeway for the actors within the justice system as it exists now ; https://www.ted.com/talks/adam_foss_a_prosecutor_s_vision_for_a_better_justice_system https://www.ted.com/talks/adam_foss_a_prosecutor_s_vision_fo... If people with the power to, start making more use of these discretionary powers, it can make a big difference without having to overturn the seemingly extensive jurisprudence. Some legal hacking. As an anecdotal experience, I have been convicted of a felony and allowed to keep the cash in my possession by the judge, which was not SOP. I guess I had made an impression. No snitching involved.
sudosysgen 6y ago
Technically in the US the constitution means what the Supreme Court thinks it means.
- gpm 6y ago
  Hmm, no. The supreme court is not the only arbiter of that. The president and congress are just as sworn to upheld it, and with respect to several portions of it (e.g. impeachment) are the only arbiters of what it means. With the rare exception of cases where the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction [1] - congress is even allowed to replace the Supreme Court with a new final court of appeals. The Supreme Court has surprisingly little constitutional power if Congress decides to sideline them. [1] > In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction [2] (Emphasis added) > In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    You must make the difference between the institution and the members. Just because Congress can change the makeup of the Court, doesn't mean that the institution has. It's a Catch 22 - in the end the final interpreter will always have absolute liberty over meaning. And again, in theory Congress can make exceptions to it, but in the end its still up to the Supreme Court to decide that they make sense. A piece of paper has no meaning in and of itself.
    - pram 6y ago
      Not true. The constitution doesn't actually grant the Supreme Court judicial review, that was the result of Marbury v. Madison.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Marbury vs Madison is a result of an interpretation of the constitution, and the constitution de facto grants that power to the highest court of appeal which happens to be the Supreme Court. As a result, the highest court of appeal essentially is the constitution.

vmception 6y ago

if only there was a completely different branch of government we could get to limit how the courts could rule, if someone figures it out they should do it and make an article about it i might even write a comment about how thats the most effective way to change the reality, I wonder if people will read that part though, what do you think?

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
The Supreme Court occasionally overturns precedent.
Felony_Fred 6y ago
Turns out there seems to be some leeway for the actors within the justice system as it exists now ; https://www.ted.com/talks/adam_foss_a_prosecutor_s_vision_for_a_better_justice_system https://www.ted.com/talks/adam_foss_a_prosecutor_s_vision_fo... If people with the power to, start making more use of these discretionary powers, it can make a big difference without having to overturn the seemingly extensive jurisprudence. Some legal hacking. As an anecdotal experience, I have been convicted of a felony and allowed to keep the cash in my possession by the judge, which was not SOP. I guess I had made an impression. No snitching involved.

sudosysgen 6y ago

Technically in the US the constitution means what the Supreme Court thinks it means.

gpm 6y ago
Hmm, no. The supreme court is not the only arbiter of that. The president and congress are just as sworn to upheld it, and with respect to several portions of it (e.g. impeachment) are the only arbiters of what it means. With the rare exception of cases where the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction [1] - congress is even allowed to replace the Supreme Court with a new final court of appeals. The Supreme Court has surprisingly little constitutional power if Congress decides to sideline them. [1] > In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction [2] (Emphasis added) > In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  You must make the difference between the institution and the members. Just because Congress can change the makeup of the Court, doesn't mean that the institution has. It's a Catch 22 - in the end the final interpreter will always have absolute liberty over meaning. And again, in theory Congress can make exceptions to it, but in the end its still up to the Supreme Court to decide that they make sense. A piece of paper has no meaning in and of itself.
  - pram 6y ago
    Not true. The constitution doesn't actually grant the Supreme Court judicial review, that was the result of Marbury v. Madison.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Marbury vs Madison is a result of an interpretation of the constitution, and the constitution de facto grants that power to the highest court of appeal which happens to be the Supreme Court. As a result, the highest court of appeal essentially is the constitution.