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Plenty of negativity in the comments here. Used properly, a system like this could be a boon to the forestry industry, invasive species management, and forest

Plenty of negativity in the comments here. Used properly, a system like this could be a boon to the forestry industry, invasive species management, and forest fire fighting and prevention, among other things. A friend did his PhD in lidar mapping of trees and forests, with a focus on identifying risk trees. He primarily focused on roadside trees that were a danger to drivers, but that was in part due to the ease of lidar mapping from a vehicle. He did trials with drone imaging, but they had to be manually controlled, which made them no better than people. I live near a national park, and they average several lost hikers and roughly one death a year. The majority of those are due to poor planning and injury (FFS always check in at a ranger station, tell someone your schedule/route, and stay on the trial if you are injured!). A system like this with thermal cameras could find injured people much faster than a search party every could. Half the battle of fighting a forest fire is understanding its location and boundaries, and tracking/predicting its movement. A system like this could be augmented with smoke particulate sensors and thermal cameras. Many ecosystems are being devastated by invasive species. Wild hogs, anacondas, airborne pests. Early attempts to track 'murder' hornets were hampered because the scientists could not follow their transponders effectively.

meheleventyone 6y ago
The main issue there is flight time. Most small drones have very limited endurance. That said SAR already use drones to help search when weather permits. For autonomous systems one thing I find interesting is how far they have to go in this sort of domain versus a good human pilot for example: https://youtu.be/bFVvUeP_oqY?t=36 https://youtu.be/bFVvUeP_oqY?t=36
- ortusdux 6y ago
  Here is one example of an automated drone charging base: http://www.edronic.com/ http://www.edronic.com/ Others are working on drone charging systems that are faster than the unit's flight time: https://dronelife.com/2020/08/01/a-drone-battery-that-charges-in-5-minutes/ https://dronelife.com/2020/08/01/a-drone-battery-that-charge... To the best of my knowledge, all SAR drones operate above the tree canopy. The forest I live by has, even at peak occupancy, more people sized animals than people. It makes thermal imaging through a dense canopy difficult at best. A good friend spent 2 years as a coast guard pilot stationed near me, and he spent the majority of his time doing SAR training. He was the one to describe the issues with thermal imaging above the canopy. We discussed using drones at length, and his main issue was the risk that they might randomly enter his flight path and damage a rotor. Operating below the canopy would eliminate this risk.
  - meheleventyone 6y ago
    Well I live in Iceland and we famously have no trees. :D
    - Baeocystin 6y ago
      People are working on that! https://phys.org/news/2019-07-iceland-trees-razed-vikings.html https://phys.org/news/2019-07-iceland-trees-razed-vikings.ht...
- notional 6y ago
  Speaking of SAR, well the other SAR (Synthetic-aperture radar) it was discussed yesterday that a radar reflector can be used to bounce SAR signals back, which would highlight your location, such as it's used for marine applications. Perhaps carrying one of these folded up ready to deploy in an emergency wouldn't be a terrible idea as the availability of SAR imaging goes up. Much cheaper to carry that than some of the GPS/beacon devices sold to hikers. Image detection is already a common ML tool for Earth observation analysis so building in something that looks for that marker in a known area of forest sounds possible. https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-a-Radar-Reflector https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-a-Radar-Ref...
  - meheleventyone 6y ago
    The traditional version of that is a bright orange square or signal mirror. They pack down really small and are extremely visible. Similarly little IR and retroreflective glint squares are handy for spotting people at night. That said if you're doing anything serious away from people carrying a GPS and EPIRB/SPOT is way more effective. The latter working even in the most remote locations. It's no good being able to signal if no one is even looking for you.
  - takk309 6y ago
    There is already a product on the market call RECCO. It is a two part system very similar to what you described. The reflector is seen directly into coat, boots, you name it. SAR then uses a device that sends out a signal that bounces off the reflectors. https://recco.com/technology/ https://recco.com/technology/
- omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
  I think some sort of hybrid balloon/drone could be more suited for certain tasks. Still, the demonstration shows that we could have a fleet of whatever navigate a forest.
- pontifier 6y ago
  Wow, I really want to see a photogrammetry system that can turn that video into to a reconstruction of the area.
poochy 6y ago
The work of your friend sounds fascinating. Can you link to any published material? My professional work relates to tree risk and spatial analysis. Would love to see some of the higher level research.
- ortusdux 6y ago
  This should be a good start: https://www.mdpi.com/journal/forests/special_issues/LiDAR_Inventory https://www.mdpi.com/journal/forests/special_issues/LiDAR_In... Keep in mind that timber cruising is an industry, so there are also plenty of focus on software and hardware to speed up inventories: https://www.fs.fed.us/forestmanagement/products/measurement/cruising/index.shtml https://www.fs.fed.us/forestmanagement/products/measurement/...
sakopov 6y ago
You're hitting the nail on the head. Forestry is probably one of the most underserved markets. The opportunities here are abound even in the most fundamental areas like forest management.
mistrial9 6y ago
Forests are "managed" plenty and dying at a massive rate. Local rednecks use the uniform and new equipment to track nature loving stoners. Wild mega-fauna who are true citizens of this place are the target of weaponized tech and have been for millenia, resulting in their massive over hunting to extinction. The narrative of "keeping hikers safe" and "clearing the roads" takes into account none of this, and aids some of it -- wilderness road building. Sorry, not sorry
aaron695 6y ago
> A system like this with thermal cameras could find injured people much faster than a search party every could. This is done a lot, you are not used to the idea of 'Swarm/Formation' so you are using it to cure everything. One long range drone with thermal cameras (and other wavelengths) is all you need. No formation is needed or wanted. I still rarely see even one drone used. We need to start with one, if its useful. I can give you many locations with invasive species, swarms won't solve that. Unless you give the swarms guns. But one drone with a gun would kill pests fine. I think even with hunting humans most killing wouldn't need formations.
roenxi 6y ago
> Plenty of negativity in the comments here. Mostly fear. There are a lot of people suffering out there right now and the risk of that leading to a war is real. This is a salient reminder that militaries can send a drone anywhere and mow people down. The forestry industry is nice and all, but tech like this is going to literally kill people. That will be the most interesting application in this decade.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  Consider drones/AI-tech similar to nuclear weapons in terms of its deterrace as well as assault capabitities. - What if adversaries develop full AI-tech with weapons mounted on them? How can a nation defend against such a threat? - What if democracies around the world get wiped out by such a tech which has no public opposition in communist/ authoritarian states? They will and are developing such technology. - We just saw the use of (non-AI) drone military tech in the Armenia-Azerbaijan war. Being defenseless is not an option.
  - rscho 6y ago
    Yes! Let's vote to make more killing machines instead of funding schools and hospitals!
  - hnracer 6y ago
    Exactly, the autocratic CCP is heavily investing in military drone capabilities, we really have no choice but to remain one step ahead. If we lived in a world without such regimes then that wouldn't be an unfortunate pragmatic necessity.
    - ygjb 6y ago
      What a completely ethnocentric and asinine perspective. I am not defending China here - obviously they are up to a lot of problematic atuff. If it wasn't the CCP, it would be Russia again, or if not Russia, then another emerging power. In 10 or 20 years it could be India, or the fragmented parts of European Union that combine to form authoritarian regimes if the swings toward autocracy continue. Every military force is investing in drone technology because any military force in the world is investing in drone technology, and while the US was the leader for a long time, the push to outsource manufacturing and globalization led to a broad distribution of the skills, tools, and manufacturing base to build modern drones. China is no more the root cause of the arms race than Thog was when he hit Ugh with a stick some time in ancient history. Its humans and tribalism all the way down.
Triv888 6y ago
Combine that with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw
bigbubba 6y ago
Do you really need to get thermal cameras below the canopy to see forest fires? I think even satellites can see fires on thermal. Drones flying above the trees should work too.

meheleventyone 6y ago

The main issue there is flight time. Most small drones have very limited endurance. That said SAR already use drones to help search when weather permits. For autonomous systems one thing I find interesting is how far they have to go in this sort of domain versus a good human pilot for example: https://youtu.be/bFVvUeP_oqY?t=36 https://youtu.be/bFVvUeP_oqY?t=36

ortusdux 6y ago
Here is one example of an automated drone charging base: http://www.edronic.com/ http://www.edronic.com/ Others are working on drone charging systems that are faster than the unit's flight time: https://dronelife.com/2020/08/01/a-drone-battery-that-charges-in-5-minutes/ https://dronelife.com/2020/08/01/a-drone-battery-that-charge... To the best of my knowledge, all SAR drones operate above the tree canopy. The forest I live by has, even at peak occupancy, more people sized animals than people. It makes thermal imaging through a dense canopy difficult at best. A good friend spent 2 years as a coast guard pilot stationed near me, and he spent the majority of his time doing SAR training. He was the one to describe the issues with thermal imaging above the canopy. We discussed using drones at length, and his main issue was the risk that they might randomly enter his flight path and damage a rotor. Operating below the canopy would eliminate this risk.
- meheleventyone 6y ago
  Well I live in Iceland and we famously have no trees. :D
  - Baeocystin 6y ago
    People are working on that! https://phys.org/news/2019-07-iceland-trees-razed-vikings.html https://phys.org/news/2019-07-iceland-trees-razed-vikings.ht...
notional 6y ago
Speaking of SAR, well the other SAR (Synthetic-aperture radar) it was discussed yesterday that a radar reflector can be used to bounce SAR signals back, which would highlight your location, such as it's used for marine applications. Perhaps carrying one of these folded up ready to deploy in an emergency wouldn't be a terrible idea as the availability of SAR imaging goes up. Much cheaper to carry that than some of the GPS/beacon devices sold to hikers. Image detection is already a common ML tool for Earth observation analysis so building in something that looks for that marker in a known area of forest sounds possible. https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-a-Radar-Reflector https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-a-Radar-Ref...
- meheleventyone 6y ago
  The traditional version of that is a bright orange square or signal mirror. They pack down really small and are extremely visible. Similarly little IR and retroreflective glint squares are handy for spotting people at night. That said if you're doing anything serious away from people carrying a GPS and EPIRB/SPOT is way more effective. The latter working even in the most remote locations. It's no good being able to signal if no one is even looking for you.
- takk309 6y ago
  There is already a product on the market call RECCO. It is a two part system very similar to what you described. The reflector is seen directly into coat, boots, you name it. SAR then uses a device that sends out a signal that bounces off the reflectors. https://recco.com/technology/ https://recco.com/technology/
omgwtfbyobbq 6y ago
I think some sort of hybrid balloon/drone could be more suited for certain tasks. Still, the demonstration shows that we could have a fleet of whatever navigate a forest.
pontifier 6y ago
Wow, I really want to see a photogrammetry system that can turn that video into to a reconstruction of the area.

poochy 6y ago

The work of your friend sounds fascinating. Can you link to any published material? My professional work relates to tree risk and spatial analysis. Would love to see some of the higher level research.

ortusdux 6y ago
This should be a good start: https://www.mdpi.com/journal/forests/special_issues/LiDAR_Inventory https://www.mdpi.com/journal/forests/special_issues/LiDAR_In... Keep in mind that timber cruising is an industry, so there are also plenty of focus on software and hardware to speed up inventories: https://www.fs.fed.us/forestmanagement/products/measurement/cruising/index.shtml https://www.fs.fed.us/forestmanagement/products/measurement/...

sakopov 6y ago

You're hitting the nail on the head. Forestry is probably one of the most underserved markets. The opportunities here are abound even in the most fundamental areas like forest management.

mistrial9 6y ago

Forests are "managed" plenty and dying at a massive rate. Local rednecks use the uniform and new equipment to track nature loving stoners. Wild mega-fauna who are true citizens of this place are the target of weaponized tech and have been for millenia, resulting in their massive over hunting to extinction. The narrative of "keeping hikers safe" and "clearing the roads" takes into account none of this, and aids some of it -- wilderness road building. Sorry, not sorry

aaron695 6y ago

> A system like this with thermal cameras could find injured people much faster than a search party every could. This is done a lot, you are not used to the idea of 'Swarm/Formation' so you are using it to cure everything. One long range drone with thermal cameras (and other wavelengths) is all you need. No formation is needed or wanted. I still rarely see even one drone used. We need to start with one, if its useful. I can give you many locations with invasive species, swarms won't solve that. Unless you give the swarms guns. But one drone with a gun would kill pests fine. I think even with hunting humans most killing wouldn't need formations.

roenxi 6y ago

> Plenty of negativity in the comments here. Mostly fear. There are a lot of people suffering out there right now and the risk of that leading to a war is real. This is a salient reminder that militaries can send a drone anywhere and mow people down. The forestry industry is nice and all, but tech like this is going to literally kill people. That will be the most interesting application in this decade.

systemvoltage 6y ago
Consider drones/AI-tech similar to nuclear weapons in terms of its deterrace as well as assault capabitities. - What if adversaries develop full AI-tech with weapons mounted on them? How can a nation defend against such a threat? - What if democracies around the world get wiped out by such a tech which has no public opposition in communist/ authoritarian states? They will and are developing such technology. - We just saw the use of (non-AI) drone military tech in the Armenia-Azerbaijan war. Being defenseless is not an option.
- rscho 6y ago
  Yes! Let's vote to make more killing machines instead of funding schools and hospitals!
- hnracer 6y ago
  Exactly, the autocratic CCP is heavily investing in military drone capabilities, we really have no choice but to remain one step ahead. If we lived in a world without such regimes then that wouldn't be an unfortunate pragmatic necessity.
  - ygjb 6y ago
    What a completely ethnocentric and asinine perspective. I am not defending China here - obviously they are up to a lot of problematic atuff. If it wasn't the CCP, it would be Russia again, or if not Russia, then another emerging power. In 10 or 20 years it could be India, or the fragmented parts of European Union that combine to form authoritarian regimes if the swings toward autocracy continue. Every military force is investing in drone technology because any military force in the world is investing in drone technology, and while the US was the leader for a long time, the push to outsource manufacturing and globalization led to a broad distribution of the skills, tools, and manufacturing base to build modern drones. China is no more the root cause of the arms race than Thog was when he hit Ugh with a stick some time in ancient history. Its humans and tribalism all the way down.

Triv888 6y ago

Combine that with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HipTO_7mUOw

bigbubba 6y ago

Do you really need to get thermal cameras below the canopy to see forest fires? I think even satellites can see fires on thermal. Drones flying above the trees should work too.