9 ms·

I think all of us 40+ folks are in the same place. When we first started we didn't mind the bullshit so much because we were too dumb to realize how much there

I think all of us 40+ folks are in the same place. When we first started we didn't mind the bullshit so much because we were too dumb to realize how much there was. Then we got older and, yeah, it's ridiculous, but we were pretty decent at surfing the bullshit waves so we still didn't mind so much. Now you're in your 40s and the real obligations of life have started piling up. You've gone from 7 hours of free time a day to 1, and you sure as hell aren't going to spend it learning about the latest iteration of Angular/React/Vue/Svelte/whatever the fuck is next. So you start losing your technical edge. Meanwhile at work you have some dipshit in sprint planning that wants to have the 57th discussion about how story points do not represent time. Oh, by the way, it's December, so we need you to watch that 45 minute security training video again so you don't accept USB flash drives from strangers in the parking lot. Now it's 4 PM and you didn't get anything done today and you start thinking about how pointless all this shit is because all we do is make an app that helps people schedule dog massages... So, yeah, there's a reason mid-life crises are so cliche. It's like teenage angst. It's not completely justified, but it's not exactly unwarranted either. I mean, what kind of dumbass doesn't wonder at least a little bit if all this bullshit is worth it?

xfitm3 6y ago
Identity politics have made it even more miserable.
- kminehart 6y ago
  what does that even mean?
  - vsareto 6y ago
    People will start drama if you use the wrong words. Either the drama itself or trying to avoid it is an additional source of stress.
    - soco 6y ago
      Lucky for me I'm in a country developed enough by all standards yet largely not affected by this circus.
    - xfitm3 6y ago
      Before I left tech the first time I used the wrong pronoun was "free". Second is fireable offense literally classified as hate speech. Most people didn't go to HR unless you are a dick. I support whatever you want to do, truly. I have a habit of joining a zoom and saying "hey guys hows it going?". It's been really hard to break but I am working on it Seriously, if I made that mistake the first 5 min of the meeting is attributed to this with some massive history on transsexuality but rarely a mention of Guy Fawkes. Personally, I think the majority of these people are addicted to their struggle and probably should work on moving past that with a qualified professional. One of my best friends and most capable mentors came out and I think it's fucking great. Good for her! She handles it healthy and always has a positive anecdote even when I fuck up.
      - Izkata 6y ago
        > Personally, I think the majority of these people are addicted to their struggle and probably should work on moving past that with a qualified professional. A generation that grew up reading about and watching recordings/movies of the civil rights fights of the prior generation(s), with no more such large fights of their own, seeking ever further niche subjects to blow up into something they can fight for.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    Excessive regard for people's most superficial immutable traits; e.g., racism, sexism, etc, whether "well-intentioned" or not.
- porker 6y ago
  I don't know if there's something special about working in web design/development but I see more identity politics here and in the community than I do anywhere else in my life, or in other industries. My partner works in education - that place of reputed wokeness - and while identity features, there isn't the politics in the school around it. Perhaps webdev attracted a specific kind of person (who felt comfortable with the anonymity of the web?) - or is software development now the same?
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    It's an industry filled with highly educated people who spend way too much time idling on twitter and the internet in general. They don't have money concerns like most people from other walks of life so they need to find something to get worked out about. I think it's understandable why big tech went in this direction.
    - xfitm3 6y ago
      Twitter is one of the most mentally detrimental social media platforms even made amplified with socially accepted brigading and censorship.
  - jagannathtech 6y ago
    very low barrier to entry
MattGaiser 6y ago
> Oh, by the way, it's December, so we need you to watch that 45 minute security training video again so you don't accept USB flash drives from strangers in the parking lot. The ability to mute a tab and have it run in the background is at times a beautiful thing.
- eyjafjallajokul 6y ago
  Unless you work at Amazon where the training pauses if the tab isn’t actively focused. I’m convinced that it’s a form of torture.
  - vsareto 6y ago
    There's no good way to certify people on this knowledge from the organization's perspective. Just get your phone out if you're feeling confident in it.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    We have that too. A second computer works wonders here. Worse is the training I'm doing now which lets you run it in the background but makes you push a button every 30s to continue the training.
    - hermitcrab 6y ago
      That sounds positively Orwellian.
    - dorkwood 6y ago
      Up next: a training video that turns on your webcam and pauses if you look away from the screen.
      - throwaway894345 6y ago
        > pauses Nit: You spelled "tazes" wrong.
      - 6y ago
notacoward 6y ago
Being on the steep part of the learning curve makes up for a lot of bullshit.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  For some, probably, yeah. And good for them. Let the rest of us have this moment, though.
ConfusedDog 6y ago
So true... I’m in my early 30s and already started to refuse any meetings without a clear agenda and call out for none stopping blabbering nonsense. It’s been much better for reducing unnecessary overheads but at the same time it would probably only work for my current project which is small scale and I have the most expertise. I will never move or take a job in large development shop with a beaucratic leadership structure.
what2build 6y ago
When the thought leaders have a “hole in their life” because a cron job and sendmail SAAS shutdown, you know it’s bullshit all the way down: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1216714155731890176?s=20 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1216714155731890176?s=20
- theincredulousk 6y ago
  what the actual fuck
beauzero 6y ago
I wanted to help train and mentor people. Went to work in state government as a developer at 47+. Could not be happier. I feel that the obligation of helping tax payers get their moneys' worth is "old school" internet. Being able to present government information the easiest and cleanest way possible on the net. Started doing web dev back around 96 and felt like the ethos have evolved into something I just couldn't ethically believe in anymore. Found a second life doing what I love in state government...oh and they treat me like a human being. Excellent insurance, more time off than I can use, and people (other developers) who believe in what they are building.
- JeremyNT 6y ago
  I'm in my 40s, working in higher ed, and I feel exactly the same. As I've gotten older, mission matters more. I don't care about selling ads, I don't care about winning the stock option lottery, and I don't care about chasing only the shiniest newest tech. I care about getting stuff done efficiently with boring tech and helping people solve real problems. Is higher ed perfect? Certainly not. But I feel like I'm contributing to a broader, useful mission. If I ever leave higher ed, it would almost certainly be for a non-profit or government job.
axegon_ 6y ago
Not just 40+. I'm just over 30 and I've felt that way for a while. I have a lot on my plate but other than that I live alone so I do have the time and energy to focus on learning the bleeding edge and I do enjoy it. But the truth is, the exact things described in that post kill my motivation. And here's an interesting fact: I spent almost 9 years working in one company. The only reason why I stuck around for so long was the absence of all the ridiculous reporting, filling jira tickets and all that dreadful crap. We had a relatively small but very solid team with simple rules and procedures: everything that needs to be done is done with well-described and documented gitlab issues, each issue gets it's own branch, do what you have to do, push, open a merge request to the lead developer(me for the past several years). Simple and straightforward, releases were always ready well before the deadlines, developers staying with the team for 5+ years on average, even when offered double what they were making. What changed? The exact thing that the reddit post described: new management, endless bureaucratic crap, endless made up acronyms, pointless meetings with tons of questions not worth discussing(ex: "Apple doesn't allow this so we can't do it", followed by 3 hours of discussions as to who should we talk to to get it up anyway) and to top this off: "hey there's this other team that doesn't do anything, we'll mash the two together so they have something to do". As a result all the most senior members(myself included) decided to quit, non-negotiable. it really pains me to see how much ego, bureaucracy and arrogance I see everywhere. Needless to say, I had to make some compromise with all that but it is insanely frustrating. I feel like most of the software engineering world is going through a Steve Ballmer crisis: the industry is dictated by people who know nothing about the inner workings. As a result unnecessary solutions are pushed down our throats: "We should use X technology". Fine, but why, it will be slow, unmanageable and will leave us pegged to the company that developed it? "Nonsense, it is the best, everybody is using X". And 6 months later...
specialist 6y ago
I decided to start my midlife crisis after a long FMLA (first eldercare, and then raising my nephews). I just couldn't go back to the daily standup agile velocity kabuki. My work has to mean something, at least to me.
dvtrn 6y ago
Ryan I think you and Adam would get along quite well, there’s similar themes that I bet you’d nod your head as vigorously as I did in this piece: https://dev.to/bytebodger/why-older-people-struggle-in-programming-jobs-1pj0 https://dev.to/bytebodger/why-older-people-struggle-in-progr...
drinchev 6y ago
34 and I feel pretty happy freelancing. Freelance IMO is closer to real life for most of the devs I’ve talked to. You are not committed to bullshit, often excluded from company brainwash meetings and actually getting paid by the hour, so you can manage the amount of “life you sell”. Mentioning corona here, I think the society is desperate to find more IT folks around and loosing someone because of shitty interview process ( which I mostly skip because I’m a freelancer ) is quite sad.
- jagannathtech 6y ago
  What do you do?
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
As my career has progressed, I've moved to places with less and less BS and more grownups. Maybe it helps that I'm not in web apps. Or maybe I've been looking for places like that. Maybe some of both.
thwarted 6y ago
> When we first started we didn't mind the bullshit so much because we were too dumb to realize how much there was. … > Oh, by the way, it's December, so we need you to watch that 45 minute security training video again so you don't accept USB flash drives from strangers in the parking lot. Admittedly, in the early 90s when I got started professionally there actually wasn't so much bullshit, and yearly security training videos are an example of the kind and extent of how the bullshit has evolved and expanded.

xfitm3 6y ago

Identity politics have made it even more miserable.

kminehart 6y ago
what does that even mean?
- vsareto 6y ago
  People will start drama if you use the wrong words. Either the drama itself or trying to avoid it is an additional source of stress.
  - soco 6y ago
    Lucky for me I'm in a country developed enough by all standards yet largely not affected by this circus.
  - xfitm3 6y ago
    Before I left tech the first time I used the wrong pronoun was "free". Second is fireable offense literally classified as hate speech. Most people didn't go to HR unless you are a dick. I support whatever you want to do, truly. I have a habit of joining a zoom and saying "hey guys hows it going?". It's been really hard to break but I am working on it Seriously, if I made that mistake the first 5 min of the meeting is attributed to this with some massive history on transsexuality but rarely a mention of Guy Fawkes. Personally, I think the majority of these people are addicted to their struggle and probably should work on moving past that with a qualified professional. One of my best friends and most capable mentors came out and I think it's fucking great. Good for her! She handles it healthy and always has a positive anecdote even when I fuck up.
    - Izkata 6y ago
      > Personally, I think the majority of these people are addicted to their struggle and probably should work on moving past that with a qualified professional. A generation that grew up reading about and watching recordings/movies of the civil rights fights of the prior generation(s), with no more such large fights of their own, seeking ever further niche subjects to blow up into something they can fight for.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  Excessive regard for people's most superficial immutable traits; e.g., racism, sexism, etc, whether "well-intentioned" or not.
porker 6y ago
I don't know if there's something special about working in web design/development but I see more identity politics here and in the community than I do anywhere else in my life, or in other industries. My partner works in education - that place of reputed wokeness - and while identity features, there isn't the politics in the school around it. Perhaps webdev attracted a specific kind of person (who felt comfortable with the anonymity of the web?) - or is software development now the same?
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  It's an industry filled with highly educated people who spend way too much time idling on twitter and the internet in general. They don't have money concerns like most people from other walks of life so they need to find something to get worked out about. I think it's understandable why big tech went in this direction.
  - xfitm3 6y ago
    Twitter is one of the most mentally detrimental social media platforms even made amplified with socially accepted brigading and censorship.
- jagannathtech 6y ago
  very low barrier to entry

MattGaiser 6y ago

> Oh, by the way, it's December, so we need you to watch that 45 minute security training video again so you don't accept USB flash drives from strangers in the parking lot. The ability to mute a tab and have it run in the background is at times a beautiful thing.

eyjafjallajokul 6y ago
Unless you work at Amazon where the training pauses if the tab isn’t actively focused. I’m convinced that it’s a form of torture.
- vsareto 6y ago
  There's no good way to certify people on this knowledge from the organization's perspective. Just get your phone out if you're feeling confident in it.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  We have that too. A second computer works wonders here. Worse is the training I'm doing now which lets you run it in the background but makes you push a button every 30s to continue the training.
  - hermitcrab 6y ago
    That sounds positively Orwellian.
  - dorkwood 6y ago
    Up next: a training video that turns on your webcam and pauses if you look away from the screen.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      > pauses Nit: You spelled "tazes" wrong.
    - 6y ago

notacoward 6y ago

Being on the steep part of the learning curve makes up for a lot of bullshit.

dvtrn 6y ago
For some, probably, yeah. And good for them. Let the rest of us have this moment, though.

ConfusedDog 6y ago

So true... I’m in my early 30s and already started to refuse any meetings without a clear agenda and call out for none stopping blabbering nonsense. It’s been much better for reducing unnecessary overheads but at the same time it would probably only work for my current project which is small scale and I have the most expertise. I will never move or take a job in large development shop with a beaucratic leadership structure.

what2build 6y ago

When the thought leaders have a “hole in their life” because a cron job and sendmail SAAS shutdown, you know it’s bullshit all the way down: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1216714155731890176?s=20 https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1216714155731890176?s=20

theincredulousk 6y ago
what the actual fuck

beauzero 6y ago

I wanted to help train and mentor people. Went to work in state government as a developer at 47+. Could not be happier. I feel that the obligation of helping tax payers get their moneys' worth is "old school" internet. Being able to present government information the easiest and cleanest way possible on the net. Started doing web dev back around 96 and felt like the ethos have evolved into something I just couldn't ethically believe in anymore. Found a second life doing what I love in state government...oh and they treat me like a human being. Excellent insurance, more time off than I can use, and people (other developers) who believe in what they are building.

JeremyNT 6y ago
I'm in my 40s, working in higher ed, and I feel exactly the same. As I've gotten older, mission matters more. I don't care about selling ads, I don't care about winning the stock option lottery, and I don't care about chasing only the shiniest newest tech. I care about getting stuff done efficiently with boring tech and helping people solve real problems. Is higher ed perfect? Certainly not. But I feel like I'm contributing to a broader, useful mission. If I ever leave higher ed, it would almost certainly be for a non-profit or government job.

axegon_ 6y ago

Not just 40+. I'm just over 30 and I've felt that way for a while. I have a lot on my plate but other than that I live alone so I do have the time and energy to focus on learning the bleeding edge and I do enjoy it. But the truth is, the exact things described in that post kill my motivation. And here's an interesting fact: I spent almost 9 years working in one company. The only reason why I stuck around for so long was the absence of all the ridiculous reporting, filling jira tickets and all that dreadful crap. We had a relatively small but very solid team with simple rules and procedures: everything that needs to be done is done with well-described and documented gitlab issues, each issue gets it's own branch, do what you have to do, push, open a merge request to the lead developer(me for the past several years). Simple and straightforward, releases were always ready well before the deadlines, developers staying with the team for 5+ years on average, even when offered double what they were making. What changed? The exact thing that the reddit post described: new management, endless bureaucratic crap, endless made up acronyms, pointless meetings with tons of questions not worth discussing(ex: "Apple doesn't allow this so we can't do it", followed by 3 hours of discussions as to who should we talk to to get it up anyway) and to top this off: "hey there's this other team that doesn't do anything, we'll mash the two together so they have something to do". As a result all the most senior members(myself included) decided to quit, non-negotiable. it really pains me to see how much ego, bureaucracy and arrogance I see everywhere. Needless to say, I had to make some compromise with all that but it is insanely frustrating. I feel like most of the software engineering world is going through a Steve Ballmer crisis: the industry is dictated by people who know nothing about the inner workings. As a result unnecessary solutions are pushed down our throats: "We should use X technology". Fine, but why, it will be slow, unmanageable and will leave us pegged to the company that developed it? "Nonsense, it is the best, everybody is using X". And 6 months later...

specialist 6y ago

I decided to start my midlife crisis after a long FMLA (first eldercare, and then raising my nephews). I just couldn't go back to the daily standup agile velocity kabuki. My work has to mean something, at least to me.

dvtrn 6y ago

Ryan I think you and Adam would get along quite well, there’s similar themes that I bet you’d nod your head as vigorously as I did in this piece: https://dev.to/bytebodger/why-older-people-struggle-in-programming-jobs-1pj0 https://dev.to/bytebodger/why-older-people-struggle-in-progr...

drinchev 6y ago

34 and I feel pretty happy freelancing. Freelance IMO is closer to real life for most of the devs I’ve talked to. You are not committed to bullshit, often excluded from company brainwash meetings and actually getting paid by the hour, so you can manage the amount of “life you sell”. Mentioning corona here, I think the society is desperate to find more IT folks around and loosing someone because of shitty interview process ( which I mostly skip because I’m a freelancer ) is quite sad.

jagannathtech 6y ago
What do you do?

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

As my career has progressed, I've moved to places with less and less BS and more grownups. Maybe it helps that I'm not in web apps. Or maybe I've been looking for places like that. Maybe some of both.

thwarted 6y ago

> When we first started we didn't mind the bullshit so much because we were too dumb to realize how much there was. … > Oh, by the way, it's December, so we need you to watch that 45 minute security training video again so you don't accept USB flash drives from strangers in the parking lot. Admittedly, in the early 90s when I got started professionally there actually wasn't so much bullshit, and yearly security training videos are an example of the kind and extent of how the bullshit has evolved and expanded.