3 ms·

In the middle of the rant on burnout, he says: > I'm sick of everyone being on Adderall. Is that really a thing? ie What proportion of software folks are usi

In the middle of the rant on burnout, he says: > I'm sick of everyone being on Adderall. Is that really a thing? ie What proportion of software folks are using it?

hasmolo 6y ago
it’s a lot higher than you might expect but i don’t think it’s endemic to software at this point. there’s a bit of a cultural shift around mental disorders and the old stigma attached. i’ve seen a lot of people i know, from preschool teachers to principal scientists, get an ADD or ADHD diagnosis in their later years. the acknowledgment of a disability is much easier now. all of that said, the use of adderal, vyvanse, and concerta has skyrocketed in the last few years in high school and college and most people just carry the habit forward at this point. my experience with interns and software engineers who define themselves by their job has been a high use of methyl salts to enhance productivity. i’ve mostly worked in the bay area though, and before moving there did not see that pattern as much in non valley workplaces.
- the-dude 6y ago
  > the acknowledgment of a disability is much easier now. Are you saying a significant part of human kind has been disabled for the past couple of thousand years and we are only now acknowledging this? I am old enough to remember ADD/ADHD did not exist. We were outside a lot.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    > I am old enough to remember ADD/ADHD did not exist. It existed, but it was undiagnosed and untreated.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      I acknowledge that it existed : severe cases were known and described. But did it 'exist' at this scale? I don't think so.
      - jacques_chester 6y ago
        I do think so. Neurological understanding of ADHD has advanced enormously in the past few decades. I'm touchy about this subject because it's hard not to take the implication personally that it's somehow a recent invention.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    "The first example of a disorder that appears to be similar to ADHD was given by Sir Alexander Crichton in 1798."[1] Mild ADHD was less of an impediment before industrialization. It's less of an impediment if you have a secretary at the office and a wife at home. Self medicating can help. What does a severe case look like if you don't know what you're looking at? Maybe shiftless, maybe dim, maybe accident prone, maybe hot headed, maybe a drunk. Do you think people didn't get PTSD before the name was invented? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000907/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000907/
  - hasmolo 6y ago
    yes, that’s exactly what i’m saying.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  I was diagnosed at 32. Ritalin has been life changing. Continuing medication is not really "carrying a habit forward". A major shift in thinking in the last 15 years is to realise that ADHD is not a juvenile condition. It lasts into adulthood, but the symptoms change because the brain has changed and because of acquired coping mechanisms. "Adult ADHD" is just ... ADHD. The medications continue to be a useful treatment.
  - hasmolo 6y ago
    sorry that my phrasing “carry the habit forward” was heard as a negative. that’s not my intent, i view habits as morally neutral. i workout every other day and consider it a habit i carry. i would’ve used a term like “continue the addiction” to emphasize my disagreement with that action. i appreciate the insight and will work on clarification in the future.
    - jacques_chester 6y ago
      I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
- rootbear 6y ago
  I was diagnosed with ADHD in my fifties! I'd known I likely had it for some years, but the formal diagnosis came late. Alas, none of the meds I tried worked, or they had unacceptable side-effects. So I mostly rely on monitoring my own behavior and trying to establish good habits. The results are mixed.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    It's unfortunate you didn't have luck with medication. One thing to consider is asking your psychiatrist whether there are pharmaceutical trials you can join, one of those might be helpful.
    - rootbear 6y ago
      Interesting suggestion, thanks. I live in the Washington, DC, area and NIH is right here, so...
emteycz 6y ago
If only. Also cocaine and marijuana, and of course all the excess coffee. I'd say almost half of people in the industry use something.
- Rapzid 6y ago
  Don't forget alcohol; the go-to for self medication.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    So normal that I indeed forgot about it, and nicer bottles of alcohol are considered a classy item to have on your office table
- Dirlewanger 6y ago
  Using cocaine to do programming is a waste of cocaine, in my opinion
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Oh yeah, that's for after work
mmcgaha 6y ago
The addreall comment blew me away too. When did smart people start taking PEDs? My guess is that software development is a field where it is more common for folks with the ADHD hyperfocus to excel, but if there is a problem brewing it should be addressed.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  > When did smart people start taking PEDs? When did ill people start taking antibiotics? > My guess is that software development is a field where it is more common for folks with the ADHD hyperfocus to excel Your guess isn't quite right. Hyperfocus is not something that can be turned on and off, and the subject of hyperfocus is not chosen at will. It's a symptom that demonstrates that "attention deficit" is an unfortunate misnomer. The problem in ADHD is not a lack of attention, it is reduced ability to govern attention.
  - rightbyte 6y ago
    >> When did smart people start taking PEDs? > When did ill people start taking antibiotics? It is kinda implied that it is PED abuse right? Not medication.
- jodrellblank 6y ago
  Since at least Paul Erdos. More recently, one of LessWrong’s favourite topics is nootropics for intelligence enhancement. Less recently, Terence McKenna’s critique of caffeine and the industrial revolution and the concept of a “tea break” to give tired workers stimulating caffeine to boost productivity, and how easily that became the norm instead of a siesta or a marijuana break or knocking off early for the day.
- pavel_lishin 6y ago
  Being smart doesn't make you immune to medical conditions. But yes, there is also an issue with abusing these things. I don't know anyone who does this anymore, but I also don't work in a particularly fast-paced environment, nor do most of my friends.
dqpb 6y ago
My guess is that the author feels like others are more productive than he is, and is dealing with that by claiming everyone is on Adderall. It’s more likely that he is struggling with a common psychological distortion - minimize his accomplishments and maximize his failures.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
runawaybottle 6y ago
Super common.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
oceanghost 6y ago
My building used to have a dealer (cocaine, marijuana, stims). You'd place and order and the drugs would show up in your mailbox. It was an open secret.

In the middle of the rant on burnout, he says: > I'm sick of everyone being on Adderall. Is that really a thing? ie What proportion of software folks are using it?

hasmolo 6y ago

it’s a lot higher than you might expect but i don’t think it’s endemic to software at this point. there’s a bit of a cultural shift around mental disorders and the old stigma attached. i’ve seen a lot of people i know, from preschool teachers to principal scientists, get an ADD or ADHD diagnosis in their later years. the acknowledgment of a disability is much easier now. all of that said, the use of adderal, vyvanse, and concerta has skyrocketed in the last few years in high school and college and most people just carry the habit forward at this point. my experience with interns and software engineers who define themselves by their job has been a high use of methyl salts to enhance productivity. i’ve mostly worked in the bay area though, and before moving there did not see that pattern as much in non valley workplaces.

the-dude 6y ago
> the acknowledgment of a disability is much easier now. Are you saying a significant part of human kind has been disabled for the past couple of thousand years and we are only now acknowledging this? I am old enough to remember ADD/ADHD did not exist. We were outside a lot.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  > I am old enough to remember ADD/ADHD did not exist. It existed, but it was undiagnosed and untreated.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    I acknowledge that it existed : severe cases were known and described. But did it 'exist' at this scale? I don't think so.
    - jacques_chester 6y ago
      I do think so. Neurological understanding of ADHD has advanced enormously in the past few decades. I'm touchy about this subject because it's hard not to take the implication personally that it's somehow a recent invention.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  "The first example of a disorder that appears to be similar to ADHD was given by Sir Alexander Crichton in 1798."[1] Mild ADHD was less of an impediment before industrialization. It's less of an impediment if you have a secretary at the office and a wife at home. Self medicating can help. What does a severe case look like if you don't know what you're looking at? Maybe shiftless, maybe dim, maybe accident prone, maybe hot headed, maybe a drunk. Do you think people didn't get PTSD before the name was invented? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000907/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000907/
- hasmolo 6y ago
  yes, that’s exactly what i’m saying.
jacques_chester 6y ago
I was diagnosed at 32. Ritalin has been life changing. Continuing medication is not really "carrying a habit forward". A major shift in thinking in the last 15 years is to realise that ADHD is not a juvenile condition. It lasts into adulthood, but the symptoms change because the brain has changed and because of acquired coping mechanisms. "Adult ADHD" is just ... ADHD. The medications continue to be a useful treatment.
- hasmolo 6y ago
  sorry that my phrasing “carry the habit forward” was heard as a negative. that’s not my intent, i view habits as morally neutral. i workout every other day and consider it a habit i carry. i would’ve used a term like “continue the addiction” to emphasize my disagreement with that action. i appreciate the insight and will work on clarification in the future.
  - jacques_chester 6y ago
    I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
rootbear 6y ago
I was diagnosed with ADHD in my fifties! I'd known I likely had it for some years, but the formal diagnosis came late. Alas, none of the meds I tried worked, or they had unacceptable side-effects. So I mostly rely on monitoring my own behavior and trying to establish good habits. The results are mixed.
- jacques_chester 6y ago
  It's unfortunate you didn't have luck with medication. One thing to consider is asking your psychiatrist whether there are pharmaceutical trials you can join, one of those might be helpful.
  - rootbear 6y ago
    Interesting suggestion, thanks. I live in the Washington, DC, area and NIH is right here, so...

emteycz 6y ago

If only. Also cocaine and marijuana, and of course all the excess coffee. I'd say almost half of people in the industry use something.

Rapzid 6y ago
Don't forget alcohol; the go-to for self medication.
- emteycz 6y ago
  So normal that I indeed forgot about it, and nicer bottles of alcohol are considered a classy item to have on your office table
Dirlewanger 6y ago
Using cocaine to do programming is a waste of cocaine, in my opinion
- emteycz 6y ago
  Oh yeah, that's for after work

mmcgaha 6y ago

The addreall comment blew me away too. When did smart people start taking PEDs? My guess is that software development is a field where it is more common for folks with the ADHD hyperfocus to excel, but if there is a problem brewing it should be addressed.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jacques_chester 6y ago
> When did smart people start taking PEDs? When did ill people start taking antibiotics? > My guess is that software development is a field where it is more common for folks with the ADHD hyperfocus to excel Your guess isn't quite right. Hyperfocus is not something that can be turned on and off, and the subject of hyperfocus is not chosen at will. It's a symptom that demonstrates that "attention deficit" is an unfortunate misnomer. The problem in ADHD is not a lack of attention, it is reduced ability to govern attention.
- rightbyte 6y ago
  >> When did smart people start taking PEDs? > When did ill people start taking antibiotics? It is kinda implied that it is PED abuse right? Not medication.
jodrellblank 6y ago
Since at least Paul Erdos. More recently, one of LessWrong’s favourite topics is nootropics for intelligence enhancement. Less recently, Terence McKenna’s critique of caffeine and the industrial revolution and the concept of a “tea break” to give tired workers stimulating caffeine to boost productivity, and how easily that became the norm instead of a siesta or a marijuana break or knocking off early for the day.
pavel_lishin 6y ago
Being smart doesn't make you immune to medical conditions. But yes, there is also an issue with abusing these things. I don't know anyone who does this anymore, but I also don't work in a particularly fast-paced environment, nor do most of my friends.

dqpb 6y ago

My guess is that the author feels like others are more productive than he is, and is dealing with that by claiming everyone is on Adderall. It’s more likely that he is struggling with a common psychological distortion - minimize his accomplishments and maximize his failures.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

runawaybottle 6y ago

Super common.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

oceanghost 6y ago

My building used to have a dealer (cocaine, marijuana, stims). You'd place and order and the drugs would show up in your mailbox. It was an open secret.