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What does this mean for people with severe Delayed Phase Sleep Syndrome (DSPS)? I do not feel the need for sleep until usually about 2am, and I find it exceedin

What does this mean for people with severe Delayed Phase Sleep Syndrome (DSPS)? I do not feel the need for sleep until usually about 2am, and I find it exceedingly difficult to wake up before 10am. And yes, it's made it extremely difficult to live a "normal" life like your typical person who can wake up at 7am without issue. It's been a problem with relationships, poor performance in school, issues in promotions and work performance, etc.

eecks 6y ago
I wasn't diagnosed with this but I had the symptoms and the consequences you mentioned. It took a long time to fix. Here's some things I tried. Some may have helped or none may have helped. * I bought blackout blinds and use a sleeping mask (sometimes earplugs) * I bought a bright light (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS) and a smart plug. 15 mins before I wanted to wake up I would have a timer turn on the light. * I eat healthier in all regards * I started working out * I started walking a lot more * I stop drinking coffee at 11am (and drink tea after that) * I stopped some doing some things late at night (after 23:30) (gaming, programming, eating, using my phone) * I started listening to audiobooks
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hertzrat 6y ago
  Reminds me of wozniaks advice: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia
  - wyclif 6y ago
    Hey, thanks for posting that! It's exactly the information I've been looking for, all in one place.
  - sprite 6y ago
    Bookmarked for reading later, I think I suffer from this. I normally can’t fall asleep before 2-4am, even if my body is physically tired I often feel like I can’t turn off my brain, once I’m asleep I sleep well and wake up naturally after 6-8 hours. It does seem cutting off screens an hour or so before bed and melatonin sometimes helps.
    - washadjeffmad 6y ago
      I have a threshold that if I surpass quickly becomes a chase. My solution is to go to bed at around 8pm and read until I fall asleep, which is sometimes immediate but never usually much past 10pm. That way, I can wake up fully refreshed at 4am, or I can sleep until 7am if I need it. I use melatonin to reset my sleep cycle if I mess up and end up staying up all night. A mg or two at around 5pm helps me back into my target range, and from there I usually don't need it. Routines are important. If I didn't try to actively control it, I'd stay awake until the sun came up and then sleep until noon, and I much prefer working in solitude when I first wake up than when I'm mentally fatigued at the end of a day.
  - eecks 6y ago
    That's a great resource, thanks for sharing. Maybe I will start drinking in the morning :)
- submeta 6y ago
  Can confirm that similar steps plus mindfulness meditation plus becoming father has dramatically changed my sleep patterns. - And I have had sleep disorder for decades. It took two years (and becoming father) and another two years until I adopted the new sleep pattern.
- 1experience 6y ago
  This year I found the most effective method, I have tried everything but wasn't enough: sunshine, flux, sleep hygiene, diet, exercise. Basically the method is as soon as you wake up you start working out, the longer and harder you work out the earlier you will get up the next day.
- glerk 6y ago
  Have you tried melatonin? I had something similar to this and taking melatonin 1h before my desired bedtime has changed my life.
  - clw8 6y ago
    I have DSPS and 10 mg melatonin works very well for me too.
  - sprite 6y ago
    Does it make you drowsy in the morning? I typically take 7mg and it helps me fall asleep but I feel drowsy the next day.
    - slothtrop 6y ago
      It's quite high, you only really need 0.3mg for an effective dose and you get diminishing returns after that in the form of grogginess.
- tinco 6y ago
  You're probably right, but it's annoying we need to apply this perfect regime just to fall asleep. Why can't we just be tired in the evening? I have friends who would fall asleep on the couch while watching a movie if it went past 11pm. Meanwhile I have to do some bullshit ww2 pilot exercise just to fall asleep at 1am.
  - kurizu4444 6y ago
    They probably aren't getting healthy sleep, which is why they fall asleep so easy. They're actually starved of quality sleep
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    Anecdata: Have kids and a full time job. Play sports. Normal stuff. Problem solved Before kids it was much much harder to fal asleep. Now i can fall asleep faster than them during sotry time. Its like night and day. Pun intended
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    I think some of us genetically are more sensitive to the impact of light, caffeine, etc on the circadian rhythm. There's also other factors like work. Cortisol levels are higher coming off of work and it takes time to wind down. Think of it this way: there's nothing special about a time zone, and yet we know that if we moved several time zones away, we'd shift. The differences are in light patterns, timing of work and social life, food intake, etc. Incidentally, many of these factors are within our control.
- realPubkey 6y ago
  Daily gym is the only thing that really helped me, which makes the corona lockdown very hard for me, basically staying awake all nights since 6 months. Thanks for the tip with the sleeping mask, I will try.
- decafninja 6y ago
  My wife seems to have this but nothing we've tried helps. She wasn't always like this, prior to my meeting her, she spent a few years working at her family's restaurant where her daily schedule would be something like: - Wake up at 10:00AM - Go to work by 11:00AM. - Get off work at 10:30PM. - Eat "dinner" at around midnight-1AM. - 1AM-2/3AM is free time. - Go to sleep at 3AM, rinse repeat. She was not like this when she worked an office job (fashion designer), but now she can't get back to a "normal" schedule.
- dcassett 6y ago
  To add to this, I found something that seems to help when getting to bed - focusing on the visual artifacts that are there with the eyes closed and wondering what's there. Often I will soon not remember anything else, and other times I will be aware that the mind's eye has started creating vivid and detailed imagery, followed by not remembering anything beyond that.
  - abathur 6y ago
    Alas, poor aphantasiacs.
rriepe 6y ago
Have you tried biphasic sleep? A cycle with one 2-7am sleep and a significant afternoon sleep (don't call it a nap-- at least 90 minutes) would get you enough sleep. It's easier to carve out that 90 minutes than it is to change all the things you need to change to shift your natural cycle.
- oarabbus_ 6y ago
  Maybe I should give this a try. I've never been a nap person unless I got <5-6h of sleep the previous day, but seems worth a try.
  - rriepe 6y ago
    A lot of biphasic sleepers claim to do one 4.5h session and one 1.5h session, and that it's like a hack on getting less sleep. You might be one of those. I need 8 in either mode. Earplugs and a sleep mask are helpful if you're having trouble in the second phase.
temp43t453 6y ago
if you could allow yourself to get 4 hours of sleep at midday (14-15 to 18-19) then do it, and go to sleep at 2-3 am for the other, longer part
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
madrox 6y ago
There's no literature I'm aware of studying links between DSPD and Alzheimer's. However, DSPD is characterized as delayed sleep...not less sleep. As long as you're getting sufficient sleep and feel rested when you do sleep, I don't think it matters when you do it as it relates to this issue. As someone who's dealt with DSPD in his 20s, I'll refrain from advice. I got no end of people telling me to exercise more, drink less caffeine, or any number of things like I hadn't desperately tried everything. My personal experience was that it naturally got easier in my late 30s, but the less I fought it and the more I worked around it the better I felt. If you are looking for help, I encourage you to check out the DSPD subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DSPD/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DSPD/
- oarabbus_ 6y ago
  >As long as you're getting sufficient sleep and feel rested when you do sleep, I don't think it matters when you do it as it relates to this issue. I usually sleep 9-10 hours and feel very tired all day. If I sleep 11-11.5 hours, then I'll feel rested, but this rarely happens. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of days I have an early meeting morning and sleep for 6-7h, but I will feel even more tired than when I sleep "only" 9h. Frustrating because 9h is on the verge of "too much sleep" for most people.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    You may have apnea. Do a sleep study or get a PC noise detector software that records nighttime noise changrs.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    Ever get checked for sleep apnea or the like? It sounds like unrefreshing sleep, it's unlikely that you need more time in bed as usually this makes things worse leading to fragmented sleep / more awakenings.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  As you know it's hard to get long refreshing sleep when you have DPSD need to be up by 8.
slothtrop 6y ago
Well are you getting a full night's sleep? If so that seems fine. You can still get sufficient light exposure in the daytime to better anchor your circadian rhythm, and increased vitamin D3 intake helps to this end (in the day). If you're intent on shifting your circadian rhythm backwards, you'd have to get up earlier in the morning at a consistent time and try to eschew what might delay your onset, i.e. blue light emitting electronics, before bed. You can use a blue light filter like flux for that in the evening to help. more on that here - https://insomniasos.net/ https://insomniasos.net/

eecks 6y ago

I wasn't diagnosed with this but I had the symptoms and the consequences you mentioned. It took a long time to fix. Here's some things I tried. Some may have helped or none may have helped. * I bought blackout blinds and use a sleeping mask (sometimes earplugs) * I bought a bright light (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07FFJYMVS) and a smart plug. 15 mins before I wanted to wake up I would have a timer turn on the light. * I eat healthier in all regards * I started working out * I started walking a lot more * I stop drinking coffee at 11am (and drink tea after that) * I stopped some doing some things late at night (after 23:30) (gaming, programming, eating, using my phone) * I started listening to audiobooks

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hertzrat 6y ago
Reminds me of wozniaks advice: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia
- wyclif 6y ago
  Hey, thanks for posting that! It's exactly the information I've been looking for, all in one place.
- sprite 6y ago
  Bookmarked for reading later, I think I suffer from this. I normally can’t fall asleep before 2-4am, even if my body is physically tired I often feel like I can’t turn off my brain, once I’m asleep I sleep well and wake up naturally after 6-8 hours. It does seem cutting off screens an hour or so before bed and melatonin sometimes helps.
  - washadjeffmad 6y ago
    I have a threshold that if I surpass quickly becomes a chase. My solution is to go to bed at around 8pm and read until I fall asleep, which is sometimes immediate but never usually much past 10pm. That way, I can wake up fully refreshed at 4am, or I can sleep until 7am if I need it. I use melatonin to reset my sleep cycle if I mess up and end up staying up all night. A mg or two at around 5pm helps me back into my target range, and from there I usually don't need it. Routines are important. If I didn't try to actively control it, I'd stay awake until the sun came up and then sleep until noon, and I much prefer working in solitude when I first wake up than when I'm mentally fatigued at the end of a day.
- eecks 6y ago
  That's a great resource, thanks for sharing. Maybe I will start drinking in the morning :)
submeta 6y ago
Can confirm that similar steps plus mindfulness meditation plus becoming father has dramatically changed my sleep patterns. - And I have had sleep disorder for decades. It took two years (and becoming father) and another two years until I adopted the new sleep pattern.
1experience 6y ago
This year I found the most effective method, I have tried everything but wasn't enough: sunshine, flux, sleep hygiene, diet, exercise. Basically the method is as soon as you wake up you start working out, the longer and harder you work out the earlier you will get up the next day.
glerk 6y ago
Have you tried melatonin? I had something similar to this and taking melatonin 1h before my desired bedtime has changed my life.
- clw8 6y ago
  I have DSPS and 10 mg melatonin works very well for me too.
- sprite 6y ago
  Does it make you drowsy in the morning? I typically take 7mg and it helps me fall asleep but I feel drowsy the next day.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    It's quite high, you only really need 0.3mg for an effective dose and you get diminishing returns after that in the form of grogginess.
tinco 6y ago
You're probably right, but it's annoying we need to apply this perfect regime just to fall asleep. Why can't we just be tired in the evening? I have friends who would fall asleep on the couch while watching a movie if it went past 11pm. Meanwhile I have to do some bullshit ww2 pilot exercise just to fall asleep at 1am.
- kurizu4444 6y ago
  They probably aren't getting healthy sleep, which is why they fall asleep so easy. They're actually starved of quality sleep
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  Anecdata: Have kids and a full time job. Play sports. Normal stuff. Problem solved Before kids it was much much harder to fal asleep. Now i can fall asleep faster than them during sotry time. Its like night and day. Pun intended
- slothtrop 6y ago
  I think some of us genetically are more sensitive to the impact of light, caffeine, etc on the circadian rhythm. There's also other factors like work. Cortisol levels are higher coming off of work and it takes time to wind down. Think of it this way: there's nothing special about a time zone, and yet we know that if we moved several time zones away, we'd shift. The differences are in light patterns, timing of work and social life, food intake, etc. Incidentally, many of these factors are within our control.
realPubkey 6y ago
Daily gym is the only thing that really helped me, which makes the corona lockdown very hard for me, basically staying awake all nights since 6 months. Thanks for the tip with the sleeping mask, I will try.
decafninja 6y ago
My wife seems to have this but nothing we've tried helps. She wasn't always like this, prior to my meeting her, she spent a few years working at her family's restaurant where her daily schedule would be something like: - Wake up at 10:00AM - Go to work by 11:00AM. - Get off work at 10:30PM. - Eat "dinner" at around midnight-1AM. - 1AM-2/3AM is free time. - Go to sleep at 3AM, rinse repeat. She was not like this when she worked an office job (fashion designer), but now she can't get back to a "normal" schedule.
dcassett 6y ago
To add to this, I found something that seems to help when getting to bed - focusing on the visual artifacts that are there with the eyes closed and wondering what's there. Often I will soon not remember anything else, and other times I will be aware that the mind's eye has started creating vivid and detailed imagery, followed by not remembering anything beyond that.
- abathur 6y ago
  Alas, poor aphantasiacs.

rriepe 6y ago

Have you tried biphasic sleep? A cycle with one 2-7am sleep and a significant afternoon sleep (don't call it a nap-- at least 90 minutes) would get you enough sleep. It's easier to carve out that 90 minutes than it is to change all the things you need to change to shift your natural cycle.

oarabbus_ 6y ago
Maybe I should give this a try. I've never been a nap person unless I got <5-6h of sleep the previous day, but seems worth a try.
- rriepe 6y ago
  A lot of biphasic sleepers claim to do one 4.5h session and one 1.5h session, and that it's like a hack on getting less sleep. You might be one of those. I need 8 in either mode. Earplugs and a sleep mask are helpful if you're having trouble in the second phase.

temp43t453 6y ago

if you could allow yourself to get 4 hours of sleep at midday (14-15 to 18-19) then do it, and go to sleep at 2-3 am for the other, longer part

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

madrox 6y ago

There's no literature I'm aware of studying links between DSPD and Alzheimer's. However, DSPD is characterized as delayed sleep...not less sleep. As long as you're getting sufficient sleep and feel rested when you do sleep, I don't think it matters when you do it as it relates to this issue. As someone who's dealt with DSPD in his 20s, I'll refrain from advice. I got no end of people telling me to exercise more, drink less caffeine, or any number of things like I hadn't desperately tried everything. My personal experience was that it naturally got easier in my late 30s, but the less I fought it and the more I worked around it the better I felt. If you are looking for help, I encourage you to check out the DSPD subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DSPD/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DSPD/

oarabbus_ 6y ago
>As long as you're getting sufficient sleep and feel rested when you do sleep, I don't think it matters when you do it as it relates to this issue. I usually sleep 9-10 hours and feel very tired all day. If I sleep 11-11.5 hours, then I'll feel rested, but this rarely happens. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of days I have an early meeting morning and sleep for 6-7h, but I will feel even more tired than when I sleep "only" 9h. Frustrating because 9h is on the verge of "too much sleep" for most people.
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  You may have apnea. Do a sleep study or get a PC noise detector software that records nighttime noise changrs.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  Ever get checked for sleep apnea or the like? It sounds like unrefreshing sleep, it's unlikely that you need more time in bed as usually this makes things worse leading to fragmented sleep / more awakenings.
JamesBarney 6y ago
As you know it's hard to get long refreshing sleep when you have DPSD need to be up by 8.

slothtrop 6y ago

Well are you getting a full night's sleep? If so that seems fine. You can still get sufficient light exposure in the daytime to better anchor your circadian rhythm, and increased vitamin D3 intake helps to this end (in the day). If you're intent on shifting your circadian rhythm backwards, you'd have to get up earlier in the morning at a consistent time and try to eschew what might delay your onset, i.e. blue light emitting electronics, before bed. You can use a blue light filter like flux for that in the evening to help. more on that here - https://insomniasos.net/ https://insomniasos.net/