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> Its not like "processing" makes something more or less poisonous I completely agree with this. There's nothing inherent to processing food that makes it less

> Its not like "processing" makes something more or less poisonous I completely agree with this. There's nothing inherent to processing food that makes it less healthy. In fact it could potentially make it even more healthy, e.g. adding fiber or protein to a starch. Heck, even just like at the original processing technique. Cooked vegetables are more nutritious than raw vegetables. But the reality is that 99% of processing is directed at making foods hyper-palatable, calorically dense, and easy to digest. Because that's what consumers crave. If someone's investing the capital necessary to process foods, it would not be smart to do it such a way to make their product less appealing. So the reality is that avoiding processed foods in favor of whole foods winds up being a pretty good heuristic. The only real exception I can think of are products marketed explicitly as health food, and even a lot of times they're not actually that healthy.

dragontamer 6y ago
My issue with this "processing" designation is that its meaningless once we enter practice. > But the reality is that 99% of processing is directed at making foods hyper-palatable, calorically dense, and easy to digest. Because that's what consumers crave. Yes, people want unhealthy foods. You can buy a perfectly organic, fully unprocessed meal from Panda Express. Its called rice stir-fry, and as long as you hold back the soy sauce its "unprocessed". --------------- A friend of mine went vegetarian for better health. He ended up eating potato chips and gaining weight. Yes, there's a general "vegetables are usually better for you than meat", but, there's no guarantee that following such vague advice helps anyone. You need to think harder, and eat smarter than that if you want a better diet. This "unprocessed vs ultraprocessed" designation is too vague, too unhelpful. It will just cause people to eat Panda Express all day every day.
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  > You can buy a perfectly organic, fully unprocessed meal from Panda Express. Its called rice stir-fry, Butter, sesame/vegetable oil and white rice are all processed foods. An unprocessed version would consist of brown rice, eggs, and the chopped veggies. Which would be an improvement on 95% of the typical meals Americans consume. I do get your point though. There's an aspect of Goodhart's law here. When we come up with some sort of diet management heuristic, over time our personal habits and eventually the market will find exploits. We'll look for the most unhealthy/tasty food that complies with the ostensible rules of the diet.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > Butter, sesame/vegetable oil and white rice are all processed foods. The article is clearly using NOVA's definition of unprocessed vs ultraprocessed. Under NOVA's definition of unprocessed: butter, vegetable oil are "Group 2" (ingredients) while white rice is "Group 1" (unprocessed / minimally processed). -------- As such, fresh Stir Fry from a restaurant with white rice, oil, and butter is Group2. Group3 and Group4 are the "problematic" (allegedly) groups of high-processing.
- jimktrains2 6y ago
  I'm vegetarian and have never understood the "going vegetarian because it's healthier" concept. It's actually not healthier at all, especially if, as you said, you get the bulk of your calories from starches (e.g. chips or pasta); which is easy to do because they're easy and obvious options until you have a larger stock of recipies in your head. It's also easy to not get enough protein that way. (In general getting enough protein as a vegetarian, especially an ovo-lacto one isn't difficult, but it can require being aware.) Anyway, it's perfectly healthy to eat meat; vegetarianism isn't healthier. What's healthier is being deliberate and thinking about the food you consume. (For reference, I became vegetarian because I ha concerns about factory farming's environmental impact and slowly just started to dislike the idea of having to sacrifice another animal for my benefit when it became clear to me that not doing so isn't actually that difficult.)
vram22 6y ago
Interestingly, Ayurveda recommends cooked vegetables more than raw vegetables, and less (but not zero) of raw food generally, on the principle (IIRC) that cooked foods are usually easier for humans to digest - and digestion is "the key to health" in Ayurveda. Source: Prakruti - your Ayurvedic Constitution, by Vaidya* Robert Svoboda. *Vaidya is the title for an Ayurvedic doctor.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  If this stuff has the same veracity as what was in Aghora, I have to wonder if Svoboda met any Ayurvedic experts at all
  - vram22 6y ago
    He has not just met experts, he has gone through the full 4 or 5 year Indian Ayurvedic degree, which includes some parts of MBBS degree, IIRC. I have not read his Aghora series. That could be esoterica or even a spoof, who knows. I have only read his Ayurveda book. Doubt that that book is wrong, since my family has some background in Ayurveda as users for two generations or more. Also read his bio on his site - says he was gold medals winner in his Ayurveda degree exams from the Pune university he studied at. I know of that school. Unlikely to be fake info, could easily be verified.
    - selimthegrim 6y ago
      His Aghora book (the first one) includes the following assertions that Sri Ramakrishna got throat cancer by wish of some female guru as punishment for wanting to learn Tantra out of turn Abbottabad is hottest place in Asia (it’s Jacobabad near where my mom grew up) Wajid Ali Shah died soon after he was sent to Calcutta by British Confuses Shamse Tabrez and Shamsuddin Sabzawari (RA)
      - vram22 6y ago
        Don't know anything about those points of yours, but interesting.

dragontamer 6y ago

My issue with this "processing" designation is that its meaningless once we enter practice. > But the reality is that 99% of processing is directed at making foods hyper-palatable, calorically dense, and easy to digest. Because that's what consumers crave. Yes, people want unhealthy foods. You can buy a perfectly organic, fully unprocessed meal from Panda Express. Its called rice stir-fry, and as long as you hold back the soy sauce its "unprocessed". --------------- A friend of mine went vegetarian for better health. He ended up eating potato chips and gaining weight. Yes, there's a general "vegetables are usually better for you than meat", but, there's no guarantee that following such vague advice helps anyone. You need to think harder, and eat smarter than that if you want a better diet. This "unprocessed vs ultraprocessed" designation is too vague, too unhelpful. It will just cause people to eat Panda Express all day every day.

dcolkitt 6y ago
> You can buy a perfectly organic, fully unprocessed meal from Panda Express. Its called rice stir-fry, Butter, sesame/vegetable oil and white rice are all processed foods. An unprocessed version would consist of brown rice, eggs, and the chopped veggies. Which would be an improvement on 95% of the typical meals Americans consume. I do get your point though. There's an aspect of Goodhart's law here. When we come up with some sort of diet management heuristic, over time our personal habits and eventually the market will find exploits. We'll look for the most unhealthy/tasty food that complies with the ostensible rules of the diet.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > Butter, sesame/vegetable oil and white rice are all processed foods. The article is clearly using NOVA's definition of unprocessed vs ultraprocessed. Under NOVA's definition of unprocessed: butter, vegetable oil are "Group 2" (ingredients) while white rice is "Group 1" (unprocessed / minimally processed). -------- As such, fresh Stir Fry from a restaurant with white rice, oil, and butter is Group2. Group3 and Group4 are the "problematic" (allegedly) groups of high-processing.
jimktrains2 6y ago
I'm vegetarian and have never understood the "going vegetarian because it's healthier" concept. It's actually not healthier at all, especially if, as you said, you get the bulk of your calories from starches (e.g. chips or pasta); which is easy to do because they're easy and obvious options until you have a larger stock of recipies in your head. It's also easy to not get enough protein that way. (In general getting enough protein as a vegetarian, especially an ovo-lacto one isn't difficult, but it can require being aware.) Anyway, it's perfectly healthy to eat meat; vegetarianism isn't healthier. What's healthier is being deliberate and thinking about the food you consume. (For reference, I became vegetarian because I ha concerns about factory farming's environmental impact and slowly just started to dislike the idea of having to sacrifice another animal for my benefit when it became clear to me that not doing so isn't actually that difficult.)

vram22 6y ago

Interestingly, Ayurveda recommends cooked vegetables more than raw vegetables, and less (but not zero) of raw food generally, on the principle (IIRC) that cooked foods are usually easier for humans to digest - and digestion is "the key to health" in Ayurveda. Source: Prakruti - your Ayurvedic Constitution, by Vaidya* Robert Svoboda. *Vaidya is the title for an Ayurvedic doctor.

selimthegrim 6y ago
If this stuff has the same veracity as what was in Aghora, I have to wonder if Svoboda met any Ayurvedic experts at all
- vram22 6y ago
  He has not just met experts, he has gone through the full 4 or 5 year Indian Ayurvedic degree, which includes some parts of MBBS degree, IIRC. I have not read his Aghora series. That could be esoterica or even a spoof, who knows. I have only read his Ayurveda book. Doubt that that book is wrong, since my family has some background in Ayurveda as users for two generations or more. Also read his bio on his site - says he was gold medals winner in his Ayurveda degree exams from the Pune university he studied at. I know of that school. Unlikely to be fake info, could easily be verified.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    His Aghora book (the first one) includes the following assertions that Sri Ramakrishna got throat cancer by wish of some female guru as punishment for wanting to learn Tantra out of turn Abbottabad is hottest place in Asia (it’s Jacobabad near where my mom grew up) Wajid Ali Shah died soon after he was sent to Calcutta by British Confuses Shamse Tabrez and Shamsuddin Sabzawari (RA)
    - vram22 6y ago
      Don't know anything about those points of yours, but interesting.