6 ms·

I believe in 100 years we'll look back in horror at our society's casual indifference to routinely waking adolescents, a group with the latest shifted circadian

I believe in 100 years we'll look back in horror at our society's casual indifference to routinely waking adolescents, a group with the latest shifted circadian rhythms, wake up before dawn. Much the same way that we look back at horror with the past's casual indifference to smoking.

throwaway98797 6y ago
only 100 years ago most would be waking up before dawn to milk the cows.
- peacefulhat 6y ago
  most in 1920?
  - throwaway98797 6y ago
    I’m directionally correct. You’re right though. Point stands if I make it 200 years ago and more importantly for most of human history.
- treeman79 6y ago
  And in bed at sundown.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    I don't think so, especially not 100 years ago. There were too many good radio programs and before that there were other people to talk to and even alone, there were the stars. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...
    - oarabbus_ 6y ago
      I don't find a convincing argument to use people living in traditional societies in Tanzania to illuminate the sleeping cycles of people in industrialized Western societies 100 years ago for people who had to be at a factory or office by 8am.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  And only a few hundred years ago jaw size supposedly started shrinking leading to increased sleep disordered breathing, at least that's what some researchers claim. Also, hunter-gatherer societies may get less sleep than the recommended. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many... And the San and Tsimane may not have a word for insomnia because they have bigger airways?
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I think jaw size is probably related to the foods we eat. (Less reason to develop a strong jaw if you aren’t eating tough stuff) At least, that’s what I read on HN some months back. It’s why our teeth need more alignment too. Not enough space.
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      It's also related to how long breastfeeding is continued and to whether you have allergies (or other reasons to start mouth breathing).
rtx 6y ago
I think we have it backwards, the problem is going to sleep late.
- solids 6y ago
  The problem is not listening to our body requests. If you are tired, you should you sleep, and then avoid alarms to wake up.
  - rtx 6y ago
    I have found discipline to be better.
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      I think that sometimes it takes a bit more than discipline, if you are going to really do it right. Sometimes there is an underlying medical issues keeping you from quality sleep (and leading to a delayed sleep phase) and other times it might actually be that, given your genetics or what not, you just don't sleep until later. I am a fan of "early to bed, early to rise." But for me it's got to be with a PAP machine.
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      It’s as if the millions of people with insomnia all cried out all at once and condemned this post.
      - nescioquid 6y ago
        People who seek treatment for insomnia are often told to institute some form of sleep hygiene. My immediate thought was the comment was made by someone who found the advice worked for him/her.
        t-writescode 6y ago
        My immediate thought was it was someone that looks at the clock at 11:30 and goes "alright, it's time to go to bed" and goes to bed, even if they're really enjoying that video game or whatever and that they think it's that easy to sleep, afterward.
wpietri 6y ago
I suspect the same will be true about artificial light. Our sleep cycles changed dramatically with the introduction of electric light. A few years back I built an automated lighting system [1] for my apartment that was basically a scaled-up version of a light-based alarm clock [2]. I got the expected benefit, getting up more easily in the morning. But it turned out the bigger benefit was going to sleep at a more regular hour thanks to lights that dimmed in the evening. It turned out that previously I just wasn't a responsible lightswitch user: if the lights were on and I was doing something interesting, I'd blow my sleep schedule out. Now, though, that almost never happens. I think it's had significant mood and health benefits. For those interested, the history podcast BackStory had a great set of stories on how time and sleep have changed in the industrial era. [3] I expect we'll be undoing a lot of that over coming decades. [1] https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise [2] an older version of this: https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Simulation-Headspace-Subscription-HF3520/dp/B0093162RM https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Simulation-Headspace-Subscrip... [3] https://www.backstoryradio.org/shows/on-the-clock-4/ https://www.backstoryradio.org/shows/on-the-clock-4/
- noja 6y ago
  I think Hue bulbs can do that out of the box.
  - airstrike 6y ago
    Indeed, and after setting up the auto wake up / sleep cycle, I had to turn it off because it was leading me to want to fall asleep at night when I still had a ton of work to get through As great as it would be to keep a more natural "lighting" cycle around the house, the truth is my modern obligations won't allow for that, so I have the lights on at full blast until midnight quite frequently I look forward to my retirement but I wonder what brain and body damage I will have accrued until then
    - wpietri 6y ago
      I think it's worth asking how much more time spent equals more productivity. For me, that's only true for very short periods. I find I'm way more productive for the long haul if I'm getting plenty of sleep. The thing that convinced me to try was this presentation from game developers on the limits of crunch time: https://lostgarden.home.blog/2008/09/28/rules-of-productivity-presentation/ https://lostgarden.home.blog/2008/09/28/rules-of-productivit...
zackees 6y ago
When you are young - your cells work better in all aspects. Even if children / adolescents have poor sleeping, protocols for mitigating alzheimer’s would be better spent at ages middle age and up. This is when the body’s repair mechanism start failing to keep up and diseases start to progress faster.

throwaway98797 6y ago

only 100 years ago most would be waking up before dawn to milk the cows.

peacefulhat 6y ago
most in 1920?
- throwaway98797 6y ago
  I’m directionally correct. You’re right though. Point stands if I make it 200 years ago and more importantly for most of human history.
treeman79 6y ago
And in bed at sundown.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  I don't think so, especially not 100 years ago. There were too many good radio programs and before that there were other people to talk to and even alone, there were the stars. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...
  - oarabbus_ 6y ago
    I don't find a convincing argument to use people living in traditional societies in Tanzania to illuminate the sleeping cycles of people in industrialized Western societies 100 years ago for people who had to be at a factory or office by 8am.
James_Henry 6y ago
And only a few hundred years ago jaw size supposedly started shrinking leading to increased sleep disordered breathing, at least that's what some researchers claim. Also, hunter-gatherer societies may get less sleep than the recommended. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many... And the San and Tsimane may not have a word for insomnia because they have bigger airways?
- bradlys 6y ago
  I think jaw size is probably related to the foods we eat. (Less reason to develop a strong jaw if you aren’t eating tough stuff) At least, that’s what I read on HN some months back. It’s why our teeth need more alignment too. Not enough space.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    It's also related to how long breastfeeding is continued and to whether you have allergies (or other reasons to start mouth breathing).

rtx 6y ago

I think we have it backwards, the problem is going to sleep late.

solids 6y ago
The problem is not listening to our body requests. If you are tired, you should you sleep, and then avoid alarms to wake up.
- rtx 6y ago
  I have found discipline to be better.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    I think that sometimes it takes a bit more than discipline, if you are going to really do it right. Sometimes there is an underlying medical issues keeping you from quality sleep (and leading to a delayed sleep phase) and other times it might actually be that, given your genetics or what not, you just don't sleep until later. I am a fan of "early to bed, early to rise." But for me it's got to be with a PAP machine.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    It’s as if the millions of people with insomnia all cried out all at once and condemned this post.
    - nescioquid 6y ago
      People who seek treatment for insomnia are often told to institute some form of sleep hygiene. My immediate thought was the comment was made by someone who found the advice worked for him/her.
      - t-writescode 6y ago
        My immediate thought was it was someone that looks at the clock at 11:30 and goes "alright, it's time to go to bed" and goes to bed, even if they're really enjoying that video game or whatever and that they think it's that easy to sleep, afterward.

wpietri 6y ago

I suspect the same will be true about artificial light. Our sleep cycles changed dramatically with the introduction of electric light. A few years back I built an automated lighting system [1] for my apartment that was basically a scaled-up version of a light-based alarm clock [2]. I got the expected benefit, getting up more easily in the morning. But it turned out the bigger benefit was going to sleep at a more regular hour thanks to lights that dimmed in the evening. It turned out that previously I just wasn't a responsible lightswitch user: if the lights were on and I was doing something interesting, I'd blow my sleep schedule out. Now, though, that almost never happens. I think it's had significant mood and health benefits. For those interested, the history podcast BackStory had a great set of stories on how time and sleep have changed in the industrial era. [3] I expect we'll be undoing a lot of that over coming decades. [1] https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise [2] an older version of this: https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Simulation-Headspace-Subscription-HF3520/dp/B0093162RM https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Simulation-Headspace-Subscrip... [3] https://www.backstoryradio.org/shows/on-the-clock-4/ https://www.backstoryradio.org/shows/on-the-clock-4/

noja 6y ago
I think Hue bulbs can do that out of the box.
- airstrike 6y ago
  Indeed, and after setting up the auto wake up / sleep cycle, I had to turn it off because it was leading me to want to fall asleep at night when I still had a ton of work to get through As great as it would be to keep a more natural "lighting" cycle around the house, the truth is my modern obligations won't allow for that, so I have the lights on at full blast until midnight quite frequently I look forward to my retirement but I wonder what brain and body damage I will have accrued until then
  - wpietri 6y ago
    I think it's worth asking how much more time spent equals more productivity. For me, that's only true for very short periods. I find I'm way more productive for the long haul if I'm getting plenty of sleep. The thing that convinced me to try was this presentation from game developers on the limits of crunch time: https://lostgarden.home.blog/2008/09/28/rules-of-productivity-presentation/ https://lostgarden.home.blog/2008/09/28/rules-of-productivit...

zackees 6y ago

When you are young - your cells work better in all aspects. Even if children / adolescents have poor sleeping, protocols for mitigating alzheimer’s would be better spent at ages middle age and up. This is when the body’s repair mechanism start failing to keep up and diseases start to progress faster.