4 ms·

Great, I guess you’re out of the businesses of programming and mathematics... after all Gerhard Gentzen was an enthusiastic Nazi. Let alone von Braun

by eecc 6y ago

ben_w 6y ago
Firstly: field != person. Secondly: There’s a reason why I wrote “social norms” — although I’ve honestly never heard of Gentzen, I knew someone would think of something along those lines. If one is part of a society that does or supports doing things which we consider to be evil, the social norm of that society is inclusive of that evil, and one who openly and enthusiastically supports that evil is still following their society’s social norms when they do so. Social norms are what keeps science healthy — without good social norms, people would’ve responded to p-hacking etc. by saying “great, let’s all do it!” rather than trying to fix anything. The importance of comparison with social norms is also sort of reason why people aren’t thrown into insane asylums for claiming that the literal creator of the universe has personally ordered them to eat each week a small token of unleavened bread which have been magically transformed into human flesh by a prayer in honour of the last meal the supreme being had with his mates that one time he took human form right before he prearranged his own temporary execution in order to give his non-mortal other self an excuse to not put people’s immortal souls into eternal damnation by default. Also the broad reason why Washington is not heavily criticised for owning slaves. None of this is to say that evil social norms are not to be challenged or fought against, just that it’s really really unusual to have someone who can both do that and avoid taking down Chesterton Fences.
- eecc 6y ago
  No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". What you're suggesting is quite simple and has been done for as long as humans have been around and it has taken many names like Iconoclasm or Damnatio Memoriae. The cynical in me suspects it's just a form of group-sycophantry, extreme conformism and virtue signaling. Sorry mate, you can despise the person without disqualifying their speech a-priory, it's the definition of prejudice.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    > No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". No, you’re not saying what I’m saying. I don’t even know how you can have that take given my 3rd and 5th paragraphs. (My 4th could’ve been clearer even if it was trying to make the same point). It’s the willingness of someone to violate their social norms which I regard as a problem for quality research, not the fact my moral code is being violated. Unless you want to suggest that Gentzen and von Braun were violating the social norms of the literal Third Reich by enthusiastically supporting the government of the country they lived in which was also The Third Reich, your claim is totally different to mine. (That said, I really wish you’d chosen a less emotive example than figures from the Third Reich, as I don’t want to even implicitly compare this situation to that one).
    - selfishgene 6y ago
      I agree with your points, except your reluctance to compare this on any level with the Third Reich. While of course the nature and the extent of the crimes committed differ drastically from one another, there is still an interesting comparison worth drawing between how the legal process was corrupted in both cases in order to facilitate their respective misdeeds.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Howso? One was a government.
        selfishgene 6y ago
        At the heart of the Epstein matter is the corruption of the legal process to subjugate a class of persons who is viewed as "less worthy" by denying them basic human rights. In the case of the Third Reich, it was jews, gypsies, etc. In the case of "Epstein and his Jewish Enablers" (see the article linked in OP) it was underage white female "trailer park trash," as Ghislaine Maxwell herself liked to call them.

Great, I guess you’re out of the businesses of programming and mathematics... after all Gerhard Gentzen was an enthusiastic Nazi. Let alone von Braun

by eecc 6y ago

Great, I guess you’re out of the businesses of programming and mathematics... after all Gerhard Gentzen was an enthusiastic Nazi. Let alone von Braun

ben_w 6y ago

Firstly: field != person. Secondly: There’s a reason why I wrote “social norms” — although I’ve honestly never heard of Gentzen, I knew someone would think of something along those lines. If one is part of a society that does or supports doing things which we consider to be evil, the social norm of that society is inclusive of that evil, and one who openly and enthusiastically supports that evil is still following their society’s social norms when they do so. Social norms are what keeps science healthy — without good social norms, people would’ve responded to p-hacking etc. by saying “great, let’s all do it!” rather than trying to fix anything. The importance of comparison with social norms is also sort of reason why people aren’t thrown into insane asylums for claiming that the literal creator of the universe has personally ordered them to eat each week a small token of unleavened bread which have been magically transformed into human flesh by a prayer in honour of the last meal the supreme being had with his mates that one time he took human form right before he prearranged his own temporary execution in order to give his non-mortal other self an excuse to not put people’s immortal souls into eternal damnation by default. Also the broad reason why Washington is not heavily criticised for owning slaves. None of this is to say that evil social norms are not to be challenged or fought against, just that it’s really really unusual to have someone who can both do that and avoid taking down Chesterton Fences.

eecc 6y ago
No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". What you're suggesting is quite simple and has been done for as long as humans have been around and it has taken many names like Iconoclasm or Damnatio Memoriae. The cynical in me suspects it's just a form of group-sycophantry, extreme conformism and virtue signaling. Sorry mate, you can despise the person without disqualifying their speech a-priory, it's the definition of prejudice.
- ben_w 6y ago
  > No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". No, you’re not saying what I’m saying. I don’t even know how you can have that take given my 3rd and 5th paragraphs. (My 4th could’ve been clearer even if it was trying to make the same point). It’s the willingness of someone to violate their social norms which I regard as a problem for quality research, not the fact my moral code is being violated. Unless you want to suggest that Gentzen and von Braun were violating the social norms of the literal Third Reich by enthusiastically supporting the government of the country they lived in which was also The Third Reich, your claim is totally different to mine. (That said, I really wish you’d chosen a less emotive example than figures from the Third Reich, as I don’t want to even implicitly compare this situation to that one).
  - selfishgene 6y ago
    I agree with your points, except your reluctance to compare this on any level with the Third Reich. While of course the nature and the extent of the crimes committed differ drastically from one another, there is still an interesting comparison worth drawing between how the legal process was corrupted in both cases in order to facilitate their respective misdeeds.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Howso? One was a government.
      - selfishgene 6y ago
        At the heart of the Epstein matter is the corruption of the legal process to subjugate a class of persons who is viewed as "less worthy" by denying them basic human rights. In the case of the Third Reich, it was jews, gypsies, etc. In the case of "Epstein and his Jewish Enablers" (see the article linked in OP) it was underage white female "trailer park trash," as Ghislaine Maxwell herself liked to call them.