6 ms·

I'm curious if sleep aids, whether it's OTC like melatonin or Rx like trazodone and Ambien, can help this situation. Is it just the sleep that's beneficial or

I'm curious if sleep aids, whether it's OTC like melatonin or Rx like trazodone and Ambien, can help this situation. Is it just the sleep that's beneficial or is it "natural" sleep (that term doesn't mean anything, but you get the point of it)? In other words, should people who have difficulty sleeping look to aids as a way of staving off dementia later in life.

snikeris 6y ago
The first line of treatment is CBT-I.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  I wouldn't start CBT-I without first getting a sleep test, particulary for sleep apnea which can be present without obvious symptoms beyond insomnia or a delayed sleep phase. It's also much more common in young fit people than is often thought.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    I would by virtue that CBTi isn't just sleep restriction, the most important component is CBT. At any rate restriction need not be very severe.
    - James_Henry 6y ago
      My point is that CBTi isn't what you need if you have sleep apnea or some other treatable disorder as the root of your sleeping issues.
- mike_d 6y ago
  CBT-I is psychotherapy targeted at treating one specific cause of insomnia. It does not address any of the physical ailments that may also lead to sleep disorders. If you aren't careful, you'll lose your internet medical license with such bold medically unsound claims.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    I think our friendly internet medical doctor was trying to say that there are some useful principles in CBT-I that could be helpful for a lot of people, which is probably true. As someone who took way too long fussing with sleep hygiene and the like before finally getting a proper sleep test though, I see the potential danger of telling people what to do first. (Though in my defense, I did get a sleep test a while back and it ended up the sleep tech was trash and I should have gotten a second opinion)
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    CBTi is generally effective, and "physical ailments" are not generally suspect in the case of insomnia. You can get checked for ailments such as sleep apnea anyhow and CBTi doesn't somehow jeopardize that. It's not like it has to be either or.
LinuxBender 6y ago
Melatonin is a hormone that can assist you with falling asleep, but it has no capability to keep you asleep or allow you to reach the 4 stages of deep sleep. Ambien is worse, in that it can make you feel like you are going to sleep, but you will not get into the deep states of sleep required for the brain to detoxify itself. The same is true for weed. Some folks use weed to help themselves sleep, but they are actually depriving themselves of the 4 stages of deep sleep. Chronic use of Ambien, weed and other drugs can cause a person to have mild hallucinations, delirium tremens or worse. This will be an unpopular opinion, but I believe the better method of improving sleep is to improve eating habits, go easy on caffeine, get exercise, get rid of artificial light hours before going to sleep and stay away from people and things that cause you stress. Easier said than done.
- mancerayder 6y ago
  I think melatonin and ambien are longer-lasting in their neurological effects than THC. People use fat solubility and detection to counter that, but I don't buy it since that's separate from effect.
- hertzrat 6y ago
  I was under the impression that melatonin regulates your sleep wake cycle, and so you take it to do a reset, not to just get to sleep one night
  - LinuxBender 6y ago
    When you consume it as a supplement, you are inducing what your body would normally produce anyway if you are in normal cycles and in the dark. The only difference is dosage. Your body produces very small amounts. Stores sell pills that range from 1mg to 10mg and sometimes even higher. Even 1mg is a lot. That is why they suggest you stop taking it for a couple weeks, every few months. One use of melatonin is to attempt to reset a sleep cycle if your cycles have been thrown off by travel or other circumstances. Other uses are unrelated to sleep and have interactions with the gut. Hormones are almost always multipurpose. Melatonin has no ability to keep you asleep however. Resetting your sleep cycles can take a day, a few days or weeks depending on your age, health, hormone levels and environment. In terms of wake cycle, your body will metabolize the melatonin and then later start producing more adrenaline. As people get older and if damage has occurred to their adrenal glands, or a myriad of other problems, then they may start producing adrenaline too soon and wake up early, feeling anxiety. This can also be a result of too much Cortisol (stress response hormone). These hormones are a complex topic all by themselves, even leaving out confounding factors.
scottlocklin 6y ago
All cause mortality is absurdly higher if you use drugs to sleep, including OTC stuff[0]. So, probably not. Almost certainly same story with other "meds" that dipshits pop like popcorn[1]. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4883191/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4883191/ [1] https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/widely-used-class-drugs-linked-dementia/ https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/widely-used-class-drugs-l...
- fouric 6y ago
  "Dipshits" is an incredibly rude way to describe people who are most likely just ignorant.
  - scottlocklin 6y ago
    I think people who stick heaps of fruit salad pills into their gob because "muh science" are, in fact, dipshits. Darwin award winning dipshits. Plenty of "merely ignorant" people have the common sense required to refrain from shoving grams of factory produced mystery chemicals down their throats because some marketer convinced them it might be a good idea. I realize there is a large contingent of HN numskulls who just luuurb to chime in with a list of their "meds," for conditions imaginary and otherwise, whose idea of activity is playing video games while subsisting on a diet of microwave pizza rolls. Such people probably got that way in the first place by being coddled, rather than encouraged to not commit slow suicide by remaining inert lumps of dung who think their Jetsons fruit salad is doing them any good. Maybe being confronted with harsh language will save a few of them. Either way, it won't hurt them. But hey, that's just, like, my opinion man.
    - krebs_liebhaber 6y ago
      > I realize there is a large contingent of HN numskulls who just luuurb to chime in with a list of their "meds," for conditions imaginary and otherwise, whose idea of activity is playing video games while subsisting on a diet of microwave pizza rolls. First thing I thought of was Ray Kurzweil.
- 6y ago
kurizu4444 6y ago
if you're interested on learning more about it, read Why We Sleep. It talks about sleep aids and the importance of quality sleep
JamesBarney 6y ago
Trazodone actually increases deep sleep and is associated with reduced risk of dementia.

snikeris 6y ago

The first line of treatment is CBT-I.

James_Henry 6y ago
I wouldn't start CBT-I without first getting a sleep test, particulary for sleep apnea which can be present without obvious symptoms beyond insomnia or a delayed sleep phase. It's also much more common in young fit people than is often thought.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  I would by virtue that CBTi isn't just sleep restriction, the most important component is CBT. At any rate restriction need not be very severe.
  - James_Henry 6y ago
    My point is that CBTi isn't what you need if you have sleep apnea or some other treatable disorder as the root of your sleeping issues.
mike_d 6y ago
CBT-I is psychotherapy targeted at treating one specific cause of insomnia. It does not address any of the physical ailments that may also lead to sleep disorders. If you aren't careful, you'll lose your internet medical license with such bold medically unsound claims.
- James_Henry 6y ago
  I think our friendly internet medical doctor was trying to say that there are some useful principles in CBT-I that could be helpful for a lot of people, which is probably true. As someone who took way too long fussing with sleep hygiene and the like before finally getting a proper sleep test though, I see the potential danger of telling people what to do first. (Though in my defense, I did get a sleep test a while back and it ended up the sleep tech was trash and I should have gotten a second opinion)
- slothtrop 6y ago
  CBTi is generally effective, and "physical ailments" are not generally suspect in the case of insomnia. You can get checked for ailments such as sleep apnea anyhow and CBTi doesn't somehow jeopardize that. It's not like it has to be either or.

LinuxBender 6y ago

Melatonin is a hormone that can assist you with falling asleep, but it has no capability to keep you asleep or allow you to reach the 4 stages of deep sleep. Ambien is worse, in that it can make you feel like you are going to sleep, but you will not get into the deep states of sleep required for the brain to detoxify itself. The same is true for weed. Some folks use weed to help themselves sleep, but they are actually depriving themselves of the 4 stages of deep sleep. Chronic use of Ambien, weed and other drugs can cause a person to have mild hallucinations, delirium tremens or worse. This will be an unpopular opinion, but I believe the better method of improving sleep is to improve eating habits, go easy on caffeine, get exercise, get rid of artificial light hours before going to sleep and stay away from people and things that cause you stress. Easier said than done.

mancerayder 6y ago
I think melatonin and ambien are longer-lasting in their neurological effects than THC. People use fat solubility and detection to counter that, but I don't buy it since that's separate from effect.
hertzrat 6y ago
I was under the impression that melatonin regulates your sleep wake cycle, and so you take it to do a reset, not to just get to sleep one night
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  When you consume it as a supplement, you are inducing what your body would normally produce anyway if you are in normal cycles and in the dark. The only difference is dosage. Your body produces very small amounts. Stores sell pills that range from 1mg to 10mg and sometimes even higher. Even 1mg is a lot. That is why they suggest you stop taking it for a couple weeks, every few months. One use of melatonin is to attempt to reset a sleep cycle if your cycles have been thrown off by travel or other circumstances. Other uses are unrelated to sleep and have interactions with the gut. Hormones are almost always multipurpose. Melatonin has no ability to keep you asleep however. Resetting your sleep cycles can take a day, a few days or weeks depending on your age, health, hormone levels and environment. In terms of wake cycle, your body will metabolize the melatonin and then later start producing more adrenaline. As people get older and if damage has occurred to their adrenal glands, or a myriad of other problems, then they may start producing adrenaline too soon and wake up early, feeling anxiety. This can also be a result of too much Cortisol (stress response hormone). These hormones are a complex topic all by themselves, even leaving out confounding factors.

scottlocklin 6y ago

All cause mortality is absurdly higher if you use drugs to sleep, including OTC stuff[0]. So, probably not. Almost certainly same story with other "meds" that dipshits pop like popcorn[1]. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4883191/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4883191/ [1] https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/widely-used-class-drugs-linked-dementia/ https://www.nhs.uk/news/medication/widely-used-class-drugs-l...

fouric 6y ago
"Dipshits" is an incredibly rude way to describe people who are most likely just ignorant.
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  I think people who stick heaps of fruit salad pills into their gob because "muh science" are, in fact, dipshits. Darwin award winning dipshits. Plenty of "merely ignorant" people have the common sense required to refrain from shoving grams of factory produced mystery chemicals down their throats because some marketer convinced them it might be a good idea. I realize there is a large contingent of HN numskulls who just luuurb to chime in with a list of their "meds," for conditions imaginary and otherwise, whose idea of activity is playing video games while subsisting on a diet of microwave pizza rolls. Such people probably got that way in the first place by being coddled, rather than encouraged to not commit slow suicide by remaining inert lumps of dung who think their Jetsons fruit salad is doing them any good. Maybe being confronted with harsh language will save a few of them. Either way, it won't hurt them. But hey, that's just, like, my opinion man.
  - krebs_liebhaber 6y ago
    > I realize there is a large contingent of HN numskulls who just luuurb to chime in with a list of their "meds," for conditions imaginary and otherwise, whose idea of activity is playing video games while subsisting on a diet of microwave pizza rolls. First thing I thought of was Ray Kurzweil.
6y ago

kurizu4444 6y ago

if you're interested on learning more about it, read Why We Sleep. It talks about sleep aids and the importance of quality sleep

JamesBarney 6y ago

Trazodone actually increases deep sleep and is associated with reduced risk of dementia.