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We grow up with the ideal of democracy and treat it as the single most important value we have to protect. Yet we spend the best (awake) third of our life in au

We grow up with the ideal of democracy and treat it as the single most important value we have to protect. Yet we spend the best (awake) third of our life in authocratic environments, where decisions that can deeply affect our lives are taken without our consent. Where speaking up for ourselves or our peers' good gets us fired. I also find it incredibly sad.

bonoboTP 6y ago
The division is metaphysical / epistemological / narrative / tribal / ideological / religious etc. Way deeper than who is right in this Gebru vs Google debacle or the specifics of this one paper. These debates go nowhere because both sides see the other as toxic and a threat and don't agree on basic terms, the basic view of who is in power, who needs to fear for their jobs for dissent etc. "but here Gebru was fired, so POC and activists have to fear" "but Damore was also fired for dissent" "but he was sexist and created a toxic work environment" "but Gebru uses the race card for minor reasons if she doesn't get it her way" "now you are just racist and consider her an angry black woman" "I don't care about race just individuals" "comfortable from your place of privilege to keep the status quo, isn't it?" "I just want to do my job in peace without drama" "silence is violence when the system is structurally racist!" etc etc.
- pietrovismara 6y ago
  This is true, but perspective is very important. For me realizing that I'm not actually living in a democracy was what gave me an entirely new perspective on how the world works. It took me almost 30 years to realize this, so I know it's not really obvious given how we've been taught to think. That's why I try to spread this message when it fits with the topic. And I feel so many problems have this issue at their core, including this one.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    Do you want to give your plumber an equal seat at the table when deciding how to organize the bathroom? Or to the painters of your walls regarding the color? As an employee you get money for using your skills in the way they ask you, like you ask the waiter to bring you the food you picked, not something he rather wants to bring you. As an employee you are not part of a self-governed community. In a democratic state its the opposite. People pay taxes into a common pool and then (ideally) have a seat at the table to decide how to use it. See how the money goes in opposite direction? You get no salary for being in a democracy, you pay a membership fee!
    - pietrovismara 6y ago
      >Do you want to give your plumber an equal seat at the table when deciding how to organize the bathroom? Or to the painters of your walls regarding the color? That's not the point. I want to give the plumber the choice to decide in matters that regard him in the company he is part of. Like what fees to ask to customers, how to distribute and eventually reinvest the profit, etc. If the plumber is an independent contractor he already has these possibilities. > You get no salary for being in a democracy, you pay a membership fee! The membership fee you pay to your employer is the surplus value you generate.
- igorkraw 6y ago
  For the record, I found it a pity damore was fired, and I think he and timnit should be allies in this. A German feminist actually analysed his memo and while she disagreed with the evo-psych bits, she actually pointed out that his argument that diversity without changing work conditions by e.g. making part time the norm is hypocritical was actually a pretty valid critique. In fact, I think you can argue both Timnit and Damore got fired for the same reasons: - they pointed out that Google's efforts are hypocritical ethicswashing which gets discarded as soon as it actually affects the status quo - they created bad PR - they had no workers council or unions to back then up
themaninthedark 6y ago
We charish the idea of democracy as a from of government that allows a large group of people with widely divergent views to come together and live under the same roof. Generally a business or corporation is not aiming for the same thing, either profit or market share. An autocratic or authoritarian governance is great for getting results but not so good for consensus. For most people in the country, they can change jobs to find a company that they like working for, it is much harder to change countries.

bonoboTP 6y ago

The division is metaphysical / epistemological / narrative / tribal / ideological / religious etc. Way deeper than who is right in this Gebru vs Google debacle or the specifics of this one paper. These debates go nowhere because both sides see the other as toxic and a threat and don't agree on basic terms, the basic view of who is in power, who needs to fear for their jobs for dissent etc. "but here Gebru was fired, so POC and activists have to fear" "but Damore was also fired for dissent" "but he was sexist and created a toxic work environment" "but Gebru uses the race card for minor reasons if she doesn't get it her way" "now you are just racist and consider her an angry black woman" "I don't care about race just individuals" "comfortable from your place of privilege to keep the status quo, isn't it?" "I just want to do my job in peace without drama" "silence is violence when the system is structurally racist!" etc etc.

pietrovismara 6y ago
This is true, but perspective is very important. For me realizing that I'm not actually living in a democracy was what gave me an entirely new perspective on how the world works. It took me almost 30 years to realize this, so I know it's not really obvious given how we've been taught to think. That's why I try to spread this message when it fits with the topic. And I feel so many problems have this issue at their core, including this one.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Do you want to give your plumber an equal seat at the table when deciding how to organize the bathroom? Or to the painters of your walls regarding the color? As an employee you get money for using your skills in the way they ask you, like you ask the waiter to bring you the food you picked, not something he rather wants to bring you. As an employee you are not part of a self-governed community. In a democratic state its the opposite. People pay taxes into a common pool and then (ideally) have a seat at the table to decide how to use it. See how the money goes in opposite direction? You get no salary for being in a democracy, you pay a membership fee!
  - pietrovismara 6y ago
    >Do you want to give your plumber an equal seat at the table when deciding how to organize the bathroom? Or to the painters of your walls regarding the color? That's not the point. I want to give the plumber the choice to decide in matters that regard him in the company he is part of. Like what fees to ask to customers, how to distribute and eventually reinvest the profit, etc. If the plumber is an independent contractor he already has these possibilities. > You get no salary for being in a democracy, you pay a membership fee! The membership fee you pay to your employer is the surplus value you generate.
igorkraw 6y ago
For the record, I found it a pity damore was fired, and I think he and timnit should be allies in this. A German feminist actually analysed his memo and while she disagreed with the evo-psych bits, she actually pointed out that his argument that diversity without changing work conditions by e.g. making part time the norm is hypocritical was actually a pretty valid critique. In fact, I think you can argue both Timnit and Damore got fired for the same reasons: - they pointed out that Google's efforts are hypocritical ethicswashing which gets discarded as soon as it actually affects the status quo - they created bad PR - they had no workers council or unions to back then up

themaninthedark 6y ago

We charish the idea of democracy as a from of government that allows a large group of people with widely divergent views to come together and live under the same roof. Generally a business or corporation is not aiming for the same thing, either profit or market share. An autocratic or authoritarian governance is great for getting results but not so good for consensus. For most people in the country, they can change jobs to find a company that they like working for, it is much harder to change countries.