6 ms·

I've noticed a trend where toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause, usually something related to social justice. It's effective and usually short

I've noticed a trend where toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause, usually something related to social justice. It's effective and usually short circuits the public's willingness to see the nuance of the issue.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
My term for this is "Karen's twin", i.e. generally you think of a "Karen" as some right wing, extremely disagreeable, potentially semi (or very) racist individual making outrageous demands. Here you just have some left wing, extremely disagreeable people making outrageous demands while wrapping themselves in the cloak of moral superiority.
- zdragnar 6y ago
  The "right wing racist" bit is very new. It primarily represents the stereotype of an overly entitled, highly strung soccer mom insisting on talking to managers when she doesn't get her way with front-line employees at retail stores.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- nvrspyx 6y ago
  I think you're conflating "Karen" with "entitled asshole". There are tons of entitled assholes in this world and "Karens" are just one type. As another commenter mentioned, "Karen" is used for entitled, soccer-mom-types, especially for treating front-line workers like crap and attempting to get a manager for their demands. As for the right-wing association, I don't think being right-wing is inherent to being a "Karen". I think that association was borne from the current political climate and viral videos. It's like how in elementary English class they teach that all words ending in -ly are adverbs, but not all adverbs end in -ly: All "Karens" are entitled assholes, but not all entitled assholes are "Karens".
  - halbritt 6y ago
    Spend any time in Berkeley and one will quickly come to the realization that Karens aren't the exclusive domain of the right.
JPKab 6y ago
"toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause" Anyone who has grown up around religious fundamentalists like I did learns this at a very young age. Frustratingly, when you grow up around that, you recognize the behavioral pattern very quickly, but the upper-middle class, suburban raised people with two college educated parents that make up the bulk of software engineers at the FAANGs don't, and therefore think these people are ACTUALLY virtuous. I committed the grave sin of asking a wealthy woman (who happened to be black and who has done incredibly well in tech but complains constantly on twitter about the horrendous obstacles she faced despite being in executive positions with zero coding experience) how we could measure improvements and evaluate progress in companies with numbers, and was told that "this is a moment where you need to shut up and #listenToBlackWomen". By relying entirely on anecdotes and disallowing interrogation of her theories against data without being attacked as immoral, she has prevented any quantifiable way of evaluating progress or even recognizing companies that have done well. This tactic of ignoring facts by simply engaging in ad hominem attacks on a questioners morality, she mimics the tactics that were used against me when I dared suggest in Sunday school that dinosaurs existed billions of years ago, and humans were long after.
- cscurmudgeon 6y ago
  Struggle sessions don't and can't have facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://www.wsj.com/articles/get-ready-for-the-struggle-session-11552003346 https://www.wsj.com/articles/get-ready-for-the-struggle-sess...
  - bisectable 6y ago
    See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fe. Questioning the righteous narrative will not be tolerated.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  The irony that you can't challenge these people while they're simultaneously insisting that you're the one with an unfair unearned advantage is always lost on them, too.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
commandlinefan 6y ago
> toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause Motte and Bailey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
- whoooooo123 6y ago
  This is another good article on the M&B fallacy for those who are interested: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-brick-in-the-motte/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-bri...
  - commandlinefan 6y ago
    SSC is actually where I learned about it myself. Shame he's stopped writing.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

My term for this is "Karen's twin", i.e. generally you think of a "Karen" as some right wing, extremely disagreeable, potentially semi (or very) racist individual making outrageous demands. Here you just have some left wing, extremely disagreeable people making outrageous demands while wrapping themselves in the cloak of moral superiority.

zdragnar 6y ago
The "right wing racist" bit is very new. It primarily represents the stereotype of an overly entitled, highly strung soccer mom insisting on talking to managers when she doesn't get her way with front-line employees at retail stores.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
nvrspyx 6y ago
I think you're conflating "Karen" with "entitled asshole". There are tons of entitled assholes in this world and "Karens" are just one type. As another commenter mentioned, "Karen" is used for entitled, soccer-mom-types, especially for treating front-line workers like crap and attempting to get a manager for their demands. As for the right-wing association, I don't think being right-wing is inherent to being a "Karen". I think that association was borne from the current political climate and viral videos. It's like how in elementary English class they teach that all words ending in -ly are adverbs, but not all adverbs end in -ly: All "Karens" are entitled assholes, but not all entitled assholes are "Karens".
- halbritt 6y ago
  Spend any time in Berkeley and one will quickly come to the realization that Karens aren't the exclusive domain of the right.

JPKab 6y ago

"toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause" Anyone who has grown up around religious fundamentalists like I did learns this at a very young age. Frustratingly, when you grow up around that, you recognize the behavioral pattern very quickly, but the upper-middle class, suburban raised people with two college educated parents that make up the bulk of software engineers at the FAANGs don't, and therefore think these people are ACTUALLY virtuous. I committed the grave sin of asking a wealthy woman (who happened to be black and who has done incredibly well in tech but complains constantly on twitter about the horrendous obstacles she faced despite being in executive positions with zero coding experience) how we could measure improvements and evaluate progress in companies with numbers, and was told that "this is a moment where you need to shut up and #listenToBlackWomen". By relying entirely on anecdotes and disallowing interrogation of her theories against data without being attacked as immoral, she has prevented any quantifiable way of evaluating progress or even recognizing companies that have done well. This tactic of ignoring facts by simply engaging in ad hominem attacks on a questioners morality, she mimics the tactics that were used against me when I dared suggest in Sunday school that dinosaurs existed billions of years ago, and humans were long after.

cscurmudgeon 6y ago
Struggle sessions don't and can't have facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session https://www.wsj.com/articles/get-ready-for-the-struggle-session-11552003346 https://www.wsj.com/articles/get-ready-for-the-struggle-sess...
- bisectable 6y ago
  See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fe. Questioning the righteous narrative will not be tolerated.
commandlinefan 6y ago
The irony that you can't challenge these people while they're simultaneously insisting that you're the one with an unfair unearned advantage is always lost on them, too.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

commandlinefan 6y ago

> toxic people hide behind a veneer of a righteous cause Motte and Bailey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

whoooooo123 6y ago
This is another good article on the M&B fallacy for those who are interested: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-brick-in-the-motte/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/03/all-in-all-another-bri...
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  SSC is actually where I learned about it myself. Shame he's stopped writing.