4 ms·

The best cure for optimistic thinking like this would be simply to try teach some of that to _not_ self-selected group. It becomes clear very fast, how non-tri

by rimliu 6y ago

The best cure for optimistic thinking like this would be simply to try teach some of that to _not_ self-selected group. It becomes clear very fast, how non-trivial "trivial" concepts are.

bonoboTP 6y ago
I think teaching anything to a not self-selected group is excruciatingly hard. It's the same with foreign languages, math, biology etc. An easy way out that schools use is to teach things that can be memorized like laundry lists. Name the 5 components of the <thing>. Name <famous person>'s 3 contributions and write a sentence to each. Specify the formula for <physicist>'s law. As you say, if you try to teach a non-self-selected general population computing, you'll see how nontrivial even the mental model of files and folders etc. can be. But these are people who successfully do complex jobs in their lives. Sometimes even some sort of STEM-related or technical/engineering job, just not computer related, like a car mechanic. I don't think it's some sort of brain-compute-power/intelligence issue. A car mechanic uses similar brain pathways to "debug" and repair a car, keeping logical dependencies in mind etc. Perhaps it's about the transition from physical to the entirely abstract/symbolic world. It may be about a mental defense against the low-status of nerds, as in "I'm not like them (thank God, haha, I have a life), so I can't do this...". Again, forcing knowledge into someone's brain is extremely difficult. They need to cooperate by their own will, otherwise you just get memorized lists that are forgotten after the test. People learn languages by immersion when they want to interact with people around them, but when people are forced to live in a country they don't like, they can go decades without properly learning the local language, despite going shopping etc. and living a normal life. I know relatives that run to me with all sorts of IT tech support issues, pretending they just cannot solve it. But when it's actually about something they really want done, like watching a movie or an episode of their favorite TV show, they are suddenly able to figure out all the details of torrenting. Not that this is some novel insight, but motivation is key. If you have an actual goal in mind that you really want to achieve (like watching the next episode of a show), you will push through the discomfort and uncertainty of learning how to get there. If you want to learn a language because you love a culture, or you need it to talk to clients at work to get a promotion etc., you will learn much better. Some charismatic teachers can create motivation where there was none. This sometimes ends up as "learning to please the teacher", but sometimes a single teacher's influence sets someone on a whole career course. Learning basic coding (perhaps not necessarily becoming professional devs) should be possible for a large part of the general population if they have direct use for it today ("I cannot do <desired activity> unless I figure this out") outside of made up tests and teacher-pleasing.
- kenoyer130 6y ago
  "If someone wants to learn something you cannot stop them and if someone does not want to learn something you cannot force them"
sumtechguy 6y ago
Not only that. But just the concept of programming is not something most people even grasp what it is. I stumbled upon a nice way to show people what programming is the other day. However, it requires the person who asked the question to be engaged. If they only see programming as a trade of wizardry and a way to make money they may tune you out. But my latest analogy for people who as 'what is programming' is to put a rock on a table and say 'teach this rock to go to the store write down every single step including getting off the table and opening the door'. They may get a bit angry and I will tell them a computer is no smarter than a rock and it will do exactly what you tell it. You need to be very explicit in what you tell it. If something goes wrong like you end up in the bathroom instead, something is wrong in the instructions and you have to fix it the rock cant. Now I am sure this analogy will fail on someone at some point. But it has worked on a few people I tested it on. My job is to pretend to be very stupid and then ask 'what sort of instructions do I need'. That is just the simple style of programming. Add in callbacks, async, events, injection models, and SQL in there and people nope out.
- toyg 6y ago
  As my dad says, computers are extremely-fast idiots.
- d0mine 6y ago
  It reminds me how Feynman described a computer as a superfast filing system https://youtu.be/EKWGGDXe5MA https://youtu.be/EKWGGDXe5MA Though programming is less about precise detailed instructions, it is more about glueing together mostly existing components in a manner understood by your team.
- opan 6y ago
  I had an Elementary school teacher that gave us a similar exercise to the rock thing. She said something like "imagine I'm an alien, and tell me how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich". I got so caught up in sharing my special technique I had at the time (extra glob of PB in the middle after covering both sides) that I just got a bit deflated when she stopped me to ask what I meant by what seemed like a basic step. (It was something like "okay, I have the bread", and I hadn't asked her to pick up the knife before applying the peanut butter) Oddly I don't remember the point of the exercise at all, or if we did anything building on it. We certainly didn't do any programming.

by rimliu 6y ago

The best cure for optimistic thinking like this would be simply to try teach some of that to _not_ self-selected group. It becomes clear very fast, how non-trivial "trivial" concepts are.

bonoboTP 6y ago

I think teaching anything to a not self-selected group is excruciatingly hard. It's the same with foreign languages, math, biology etc. An easy way out that schools use is to teach things that can be memorized like laundry lists. Name the 5 components of the <thing>. Name <famous person>'s 3 contributions and write a sentence to each. Specify the formula for <physicist>'s law. As you say, if you try to teach a non-self-selected general population computing, you'll see how nontrivial even the mental model of files and folders etc. can be. But these are people who successfully do complex jobs in their lives. Sometimes even some sort of STEM-related or technical/engineering job, just not computer related, like a car mechanic. I don't think it's some sort of brain-compute-power/intelligence issue. A car mechanic uses similar brain pathways to "debug" and repair a car, keeping logical dependencies in mind etc. Perhaps it's about the transition from physical to the entirely abstract/symbolic world. It may be about a mental defense against the low-status of nerds, as in "I'm not like them (thank God, haha, I have a life), so I can't do this...". Again, forcing knowledge into someone's brain is extremely difficult. They need to cooperate by their own will, otherwise you just get memorized lists that are forgotten after the test. People learn languages by immersion when they want to interact with people around them, but when people are forced to live in a country they don't like, they can go decades without properly learning the local language, despite going shopping etc. and living a normal life. I know relatives that run to me with all sorts of IT tech support issues, pretending they just cannot solve it. But when it's actually about something they really want done, like watching a movie or an episode of their favorite TV show, they are suddenly able to figure out all the details of torrenting. Not that this is some novel insight, but motivation is key. If you have an actual goal in mind that you really want to achieve (like watching the next episode of a show), you will push through the discomfort and uncertainty of learning how to get there. If you want to learn a language because you love a culture, or you need it to talk to clients at work to get a promotion etc., you will learn much better. Some charismatic teachers can create motivation where there was none. This sometimes ends up as "learning to please the teacher", but sometimes a single teacher's influence sets someone on a whole career course. Learning basic coding (perhaps not necessarily becoming professional devs) should be possible for a large part of the general population if they have direct use for it today ("I cannot do <desired activity> unless I figure this out") outside of made up tests and teacher-pleasing.

kenoyer130 6y ago
"If someone wants to learn something you cannot stop them and if someone does not want to learn something you cannot force them"

sumtechguy 6y ago

Not only that. But just the concept of programming is not something most people even grasp what it is. I stumbled upon a nice way to show people what programming is the other day. However, it requires the person who asked the question to be engaged. If they only see programming as a trade of wizardry and a way to make money they may tune you out. But my latest analogy for people who as 'what is programming' is to put a rock on a table and say 'teach this rock to go to the store write down every single step including getting off the table and opening the door'. They may get a bit angry and I will tell them a computer is no smarter than a rock and it will do exactly what you tell it. You need to be very explicit in what you tell it. If something goes wrong like you end up in the bathroom instead, something is wrong in the instructions and you have to fix it the rock cant. Now I am sure this analogy will fail on someone at some point. But it has worked on a few people I tested it on. My job is to pretend to be very stupid and then ask 'what sort of instructions do I need'. That is just the simple style of programming. Add in callbacks, async, events, injection models, and SQL in there and people nope out.

toyg 6y ago
As my dad says, computers are extremely-fast idiots.
d0mine 6y ago
It reminds me how Feynman described a computer as a superfast filing system https://youtu.be/EKWGGDXe5MA https://youtu.be/EKWGGDXe5MA Though programming is less about precise detailed instructions, it is more about glueing together mostly existing components in a manner understood by your team.
opan 6y ago
I had an Elementary school teacher that gave us a similar exercise to the rock thing. She said something like "imagine I'm an alien, and tell me how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich". I got so caught up in sharing my special technique I had at the time (extra glob of PB in the middle after covering both sides) that I just got a bit deflated when she stopped me to ask what I meant by what seemed like a basic step. (It was something like "okay, I have the bread", and I hadn't asked her to pick up the knife before applying the peanut butter) Oddly I don't remember the point of the exercise at all, or if we did anything building on it. We certainly didn't do any programming.