4 ms·

I agree with your points about trust in the process. However I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research (or at least related to d

I agree with your points about trust in the process. However I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research (or at least related to dishonesty generally). Getting drunk and beating up your spouse is certainly unethical but would not (by itself) mean your research is unsound.

ben_w 6y ago
It would imply a lack of self-control, a lack of awareness of broader social norms, or both [0]. Either individually means they are at risk of breaking the conventions that good quality work relies on. [0] with caveats for convoluted circumstances such as a consensual BDSM scene where the drunkenness and the beating was negotiated and agreed to while sober, but didn’t seem to be the sort of thing you were talking about
- eecc 6y ago
  Great, I guess you’re out of the businesses of programming and mathematics... after all Gerhard Gentzen was an enthusiastic Nazi. Let alone von Braun
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Firstly: field != person. Secondly: There’s a reason why I wrote “social norms” — although I’ve honestly never heard of Gentzen, I knew someone would think of something along those lines. If one is part of a society that does or supports doing things which we consider to be evil, the social norm of that society is inclusive of that evil, and one who openly and enthusiastically supports that evil is still following their society’s social norms when they do so. Social norms are what keeps science healthy — without good social norms, people would’ve responded to p-hacking etc. by saying “great, let’s all do it!” rather than trying to fix anything. The importance of comparison with social norms is also sort of reason why people aren’t thrown into insane asylums for claiming that the literal creator of the universe has personally ordered them to eat each week a small token of unleavened bread which have been magically transformed into human flesh by a prayer in honour of the last meal the supreme being had with his mates that one time he took human form right before he prearranged his own temporary execution in order to give his non-mortal other self an excuse to not put people’s immortal souls into eternal damnation by default. Also the broad reason why Washington is not heavily criticised for owning slaves. None of this is to say that evil social norms are not to be challenged or fought against, just that it’s really really unusual to have someone who can both do that and avoid taking down Chesterton Fences.
    - eecc 6y ago
      No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". What you're suggesting is quite simple and has been done for as long as humans have been around and it has taken many names like Iconoclasm or Damnatio Memoriae. The cynical in me suspects it's just a form of group-sycophantry, extreme conformism and virtue signaling. Sorry mate, you can despise the person without disqualifying their speech a-priory, it's the definition of prejudice.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        > No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". No, you’re not saying what I’m saying. I don’t even know how you can have that take given my 3rd and 5th paragraphs. (My 4th could’ve been clearer even if it was trying to make the same point). It’s the willingness of someone to violate their social norms which I regard as a problem for quality research, not the fact my moral code is being violated. Unless you want to suggest that Gentzen and von Braun were violating the social norms of the literal Third Reich by enthusiastically supporting the government of the country they lived in which was also The Third Reich, your claim is totally different to mine. (That said, I really wish you’d chosen a less emotive example than figures from the Third Reich, as I don’t want to even implicitly compare this situation to that one).
        selfishgene 6y ago
        I agree with your points, except your reluctance to compare this on any level with the Third Reich. While of course the nature and the extent of the crimes committed differ drastically from one another, there is still an interesting comparison worth drawing between how the legal process was corrupted in both cases in order to facilitate their respective misdeeds.
        6y ago
- DharmaPolice 6y ago
  >It would imply a lack of self-control, a lack of awareness of broader social norms, or both [0]. Either individually means they are at risk of breaking the conventions that good quality work relies on. This feels like a stretch to put it mildly.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Being a “risk” feels like a stretch? Clearly my phrasing could use work, because my goal here is a higher level of scrutiny.
daveFNbuck 6y ago
> I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research I think this covers that: > This article was probably written to defend MIT president Rafael Reif's decision to mark Epstein's post-conviction donations to MIT as anonymous.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  > This article was probably written to defend MIT president... ...it's just wildly implausible, or is that me? The author of this piece on game theory has written it at the behest of Reif, or to support Reif...somehow? I promise you Reif has no idea about this article.
  - selfishgene 6y ago
    Of course he does. Newspapers around the world are trying to hold these universities to account for what happened here. The anonymous donations issue is a HUGE part of this. Trust me. https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-epstein-les-wexner-l-brands-victoria-secret-limited https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-eps... https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-jet-2019-9 https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-... https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-unsealed-docs/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-u... https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%E2%80%99s-much-more-story-2 https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-from-wexner-why-didnt-wexner-sue.html#:~:text=Leslie%20Wexner%2C%20the%20billionaire%20founder%20of%20Limited%20Brands,%E2%80%9Cmisappropriated%E2%80%9D%20more%20than%20%2446%20million%20of%20his%20wealth https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-fro.... https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation-about-jeffrey-epstein https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation... https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-homosexuality-shortly-death-will-make-cringe-20190814 https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-ho... https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-epsteins-finances-reveals-trust-and-payments-2019-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-eps... ... and more and more to come for sure as criminal prosecution of Mr. Epstein's most famous "recruiter" gets underway, the daughter of disgraced publishing magnate Robert Maxwell.

ben_w 6y ago

It would imply a lack of self-control, a lack of awareness of broader social norms, or both [0]. Either individually means they are at risk of breaking the conventions that good quality work relies on. [0] with caveats for convoluted circumstances such as a consensual BDSM scene where the drunkenness and the beating was negotiated and agreed to while sober, but didn’t seem to be the sort of thing you were talking about

eecc 6y ago
Great, I guess you’re out of the businesses of programming and mathematics... after all Gerhard Gentzen was an enthusiastic Nazi. Let alone von Braun
- ben_w 6y ago
  Firstly: field != person. Secondly: There’s a reason why I wrote “social norms” — although I’ve honestly never heard of Gentzen, I knew someone would think of something along those lines. If one is part of a society that does or supports doing things which we consider to be evil, the social norm of that society is inclusive of that evil, and one who openly and enthusiastically supports that evil is still following their society’s social norms when they do so. Social norms are what keeps science healthy — without good social norms, people would’ve responded to p-hacking etc. by saying “great, let’s all do it!” rather than trying to fix anything. The importance of comparison with social norms is also sort of reason why people aren’t thrown into insane asylums for claiming that the literal creator of the universe has personally ordered them to eat each week a small token of unleavened bread which have been magically transformed into human flesh by a prayer in honour of the last meal the supreme being had with his mates that one time he took human form right before he prearranged his own temporary execution in order to give his non-mortal other self an excuse to not put people’s immortal souls into eternal damnation by default. Also the broad reason why Washington is not heavily criticised for owning slaves. None of this is to say that evil social norms are not to be challenged or fought against, just that it’s really really unusual to have someone who can both do that and avoid taking down Chesterton Fences.
  - eecc 6y ago
    No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". What you're suggesting is quite simple and has been done for as long as humans have been around and it has taken many names like Iconoclasm or Damnatio Memoriae. The cynical in me suspects it's just a form of group-sycophantry, extreme conformism and virtue signaling. Sorry mate, you can despise the person without disqualifying their speech a-priory, it's the definition of prejudice.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      > No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". No, you’re not saying what I’m saying. I don’t even know how you can have that take given my 3rd and 5th paragraphs. (My 4th could’ve been clearer even if it was trying to make the same point). It’s the willingness of someone to violate their social norms which I regard as a problem for quality research, not the fact my moral code is being violated. Unless you want to suggest that Gentzen and von Braun were violating the social norms of the literal Third Reich by enthusiastically supporting the government of the country they lived in which was also The Third Reich, your claim is totally different to mine. (That said, I really wish you’d chosen a less emotive example than figures from the Third Reich, as I don’t want to even implicitly compare this situation to that one).
      - selfishgene 6y ago
        I agree with your points, except your reluctance to compare this on any level with the Third Reich. While of course the nature and the extent of the crimes committed differ drastically from one another, there is still an interesting comparison worth drawing between how the legal process was corrupted in both cases in order to facilitate their respective misdeeds.
        6y ago
DharmaPolice 6y ago
>It would imply a lack of self-control, a lack of awareness of broader social norms, or both [0]. Either individually means they are at risk of breaking the conventions that good quality work relies on. This feels like a stretch to put it mildly.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Being a “risk” feels like a stretch? Clearly my phrasing could use work, because my goal here is a higher level of scrutiny.

daveFNbuck 6y ago

> I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research I think this covers that: > This article was probably written to defend MIT president Rafael Reif's decision to mark Epstein's post-conviction donations to MIT as anonymous.

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
> This article was probably written to defend MIT president... ...it's just wildly implausible, or is that me? The author of this piece on game theory has written it at the behest of Reif, or to support Reif...somehow? I promise you Reif has no idea about this article.
- selfishgene 6y ago
  Of course he does. Newspapers around the world are trying to hold these universities to account for what happened here. The anonymous donations issue is a HUGE part of this. Trust me. https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-epstein-les-wexner-l-brands-victoria-secret-limited https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-eps... https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-jet-2019-9 https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-... https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-unsealed-docs/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-u... https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%E2%80%99s-much-more-story-2 https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-from-wexner-why-didnt-wexner-sue.html#:~:text=Leslie%20Wexner%2C%20the%20billionaire%20founder%20of%20Limited%20Brands,%E2%80%9Cmisappropriated%E2%80%9D%20more%20than%20%2446%20million%20of%20his%20wealth https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-fro.... https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation-about-jeffrey-epstein https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation... https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-homosexuality-shortly-death-will-make-cringe-20190814 https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-ho... https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-epsteins-finances-reveals-trust-and-payments-2019-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-eps... ... and more and more to come for sure as criminal prosecution of Mr. Epstein's most famous "recruiter" gets underway, the daughter of disgraced publishing magnate Robert Maxwell.