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So he is an immoral person That shouldn't effect his research abilities. I can still enjoying watching House of Cards or listening to Soviet music.

by crowf 6y ago

CobrastanJorji 6y ago
Ethics tie directly to the quality of research. Good acting is good acting regardless of whether the actor is acting morally, but research can be manipulated by an unethical actor in myriad ways. It's frankly quite disturbing how much trust there is in the research process and how little that trust is deserved. There's a broad spectrum of potential bad behavior impacting the results, ranging from straight up faking results on one end to p-hacking to just failing to publish relevant negative results or undesired results. An agenda can affect research in many, many ways, and it's absolutely relevant to whether you should trust a paper. It shouldn't be that way. Not needing trust is rather the point of the scientific process. But it is.
- DharmaPolice 6y ago
  I agree with your points about trust in the process. However I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research (or at least related to dishonesty generally). Getting drunk and beating up your spouse is certainly unethical but would not (by itself) mean your research is unsound.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    It would imply a lack of self-control, a lack of awareness of broader social norms, or both [0]. Either individually means they are at risk of breaking the conventions that good quality work relies on. [0] with caveats for convoluted circumstances such as a consensual BDSM scene where the drunkenness and the beating was negotiated and agreed to while sober, but didn’t seem to be the sort of thing you were talking about
    - eecc 6y ago
      Great, I guess you’re out of the businesses of programming and mathematics... after all Gerhard Gentzen was an enthusiastic Nazi. Let alone von Braun
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Firstly: field != person. Secondly: There’s a reason why I wrote “social norms” — although I’ve honestly never heard of Gentzen, I knew someone would think of something along those lines. If one is part of a society that does or supports doing things which we consider to be evil, the social norm of that society is inclusive of that evil, and one who openly and enthusiastically supports that evil is still following their society’s social norms when they do so. Social norms are what keeps science healthy — without good social norms, people would’ve responded to p-hacking etc. by saying “great, let’s all do it!” rather than trying to fix anything. The importance of comparison with social norms is also sort of reason why people aren’t thrown into insane asylums for claiming that the literal creator of the universe has personally ordered them to eat each week a small token of unleavened bread which have been magically transformed into human flesh by a prayer in honour of the last meal the supreme being had with his mates that one time he took human form right before he prearranged his own temporary execution in order to give his non-mortal other self an excuse to not put people’s immortal souls into eternal damnation by default. Also the broad reason why Washington is not heavily criticised for owning slaves. None of this is to say that evil social norms are not to be challenged or fought against, just that it’s really really unusual to have someone who can both do that and avoid taking down Chesterton Fences.
        eecc 6y ago
        No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". What you're suggesting is quite simple and has been done for as long as humans have been around and it has taken many names like Iconoclasm or Damnatio Memoriae. The cynical in me suspects it's just a form of group-sycophantry, extreme conformism and virtue signaling. Sorry mate, you can despise the person without disqualifying their speech a-priory, it's the definition of prejudice.
  - daveFNbuck 6y ago
    > I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research I think this covers that: > This article was probably written to defend MIT president Rafael Reif's decision to mark Epstein's post-conviction donations to MIT as anonymous.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
      > This article was probably written to defend MIT president... ...it's just wildly implausible, or is that me? The author of this piece on game theory has written it at the behest of Reif, or to support Reif...somehow? I promise you Reif has no idea about this article.
      - selfishgene 6y ago
        Of course he does. Newspapers around the world are trying to hold these universities to account for what happened here. The anonymous donations issue is a HUGE part of this. Trust me. https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-epstein-les-wexner-l-brands-victoria-secret-limited https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-eps... https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-jet-2019-9 https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-... https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-unsealed-docs/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-u... https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%E2%80%99s-much-more-story-2 https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-from-wexner-why-didnt-wexner-sue.html#:~:text=Leslie%20Wexner%2C%20the%20billionaire%20founder%20of%20Limited%20Brands,%E2%80%9Cmisappropriated%E2%80%9D%20more%20than%20%2446%20million%20of%20his%20wealth https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-fro.... https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation-about-jeffrey-epstein https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation... https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-homosexuality-shortly-death-will-make-cringe-20190814 https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-ho... https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-epsteins-finances-reveals-trust-and-payments-2019-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-eps... ... and more and more to come for sure as criminal prosecution of Mr. Epstein's most famous "recruiter" gets underway, the daughter of disgraced publishing magnate Robert Maxwell.
- whiddershins 6y ago
  This is only half true. The overwhelming majority of people just aren’t as consistent as we tend to believe they are. So, in real life, a person can be extremely rigorous and honest in one area of life, and much less so in another.
GauntletWizard 6y ago
Immorality is a proxy of judgement and poor definitions. The most cogent definition of “Immoral” or argument that someone is “Immoral” would be contrasting how the subject’s definition of “Good” differs from your own or the common view. Very few people go out seeking to do evil. Most seek to do good, but by their own definition (which can be selfish, misguided, or outright vile). Some simply don’t care; Their absence of moral judgement (amorality) can lead to many immoral actions when their desires come into contact with others interests, but for the most part society is organized to promote the idea that your own best interests are best served by acting in the common good. If this sounds circular - It is. There’s no definition of morality from axiom[1]. Studies are (where possible) Double-Blind for a reason. The judgement of a researcher obviously affects study design. The goals of a researcher affect the way data is interpreted and presented in subtle and non-subtle ways. That’s not to mention the possibility of academic misconduct or outright fraud, which is axiomatically related to poor moral behavior. [1] In actuality, there are many, but most have obvious flaws and contradictions.
polytely 6y ago
You can, but I found it very helpful to know that upvoting this boosts the signal of someone who I despise. So now I can just skip reading this.
MrRiddle 6y ago
You mean: “I’ll toss him a few coins if I like his show, I don’t care if he’s a paedophile”?
- PunchTornado 6y ago
  you mean you wouldn't read good research or watch good art because the creator does something bad in his private life?
  - MrRiddle 6y ago
    No, I mean I wouldn’t pay them. I would try to not benefit them in any way.
alisonkisk 6y ago
House of Cards is fiction. Is this research acceptable as a work of fiction? OK, sure.
- mattkrause 6y ago
  Kevin Spacey is real though....

So he is an immoral person That shouldn't effect his research abilities. I can still enjoying watching House of Cards or listening to Soviet music.

by crowf 6y ago

So he is an immoral person That shouldn't effect his research abilities. I can still enjoying watching House of Cards or listening to Soviet music.

CobrastanJorji 6y ago

Ethics tie directly to the quality of research. Good acting is good acting regardless of whether the actor is acting morally, but research can be manipulated by an unethical actor in myriad ways. It's frankly quite disturbing how much trust there is in the research process and how little that trust is deserved. There's a broad spectrum of potential bad behavior impacting the results, ranging from straight up faking results on one end to p-hacking to just failing to publish relevant negative results or undesired results. An agenda can affect research in many, many ways, and it's absolutely relevant to whether you should trust a paper. It shouldn't be that way. Not needing trust is rather the point of the scientific process. But it is.

DharmaPolice 6y ago
I agree with your points about trust in the process. However I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research (or at least related to dishonesty generally). Getting drunk and beating up your spouse is certainly unethical but would not (by itself) mean your research is unsound.
- ben_w 6y ago
  It would imply a lack of self-control, a lack of awareness of broader social norms, or both [0]. Either individually means they are at risk of breaking the conventions that good quality work relies on. [0] with caveats for convoluted circumstances such as a consensual BDSM scene where the drunkenness and the beating was negotiated and agreed to while sober, but didn’t seem to be the sort of thing you were talking about
  - eecc 6y ago
    Great, I guess you’re out of the businesses of programming and mathematics... after all Gerhard Gentzen was an enthusiastic Nazi. Let alone von Braun
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Firstly: field != person. Secondly: There’s a reason why I wrote “social norms” — although I’ve honestly never heard of Gentzen, I knew someone would think of something along those lines. If one is part of a society that does or supports doing things which we consider to be evil, the social norm of that society is inclusive of that evil, and one who openly and enthusiastically supports that evil is still following their society’s social norms when they do so. Social norms are what keeps science healthy — without good social norms, people would’ve responded to p-hacking etc. by saying “great, let’s all do it!” rather than trying to fix anything. The importance of comparison with social norms is also sort of reason why people aren’t thrown into insane asylums for claiming that the literal creator of the universe has personally ordered them to eat each week a small token of unleavened bread which have been magically transformed into human flesh by a prayer in honour of the last meal the supreme being had with his mates that one time he took human form right before he prearranged his own temporary execution in order to give his non-mortal other self an excuse to not put people’s immortal souls into eternal damnation by default. Also the broad reason why Washington is not heavily criticised for owning slaves. None of this is to say that evil social norms are not to be challenged or fought against, just that it’s really really unusual to have someone who can both do that and avoid taking down Chesterton Fences.
      - eecc 6y ago
        No, I'm literally saying what you're advocating: if one has to expunge the research of an individual on the basis of their morals... well take these two examples and good luck with any progress in these fields while keeping them "canceled". What you're suggesting is quite simple and has been done for as long as humans have been around and it has taken many names like Iconoclasm or Damnatio Memoriae. The cynical in me suspects it's just a form of group-sycophantry, extreme conformism and virtue signaling. Sorry mate, you can despise the person without disqualifying their speech a-priory, it's the definition of prejudice.
- daveFNbuck 6y ago
  > I think the ethics violation needs to be somewhat related to the research I think this covers that: > This article was probably written to defend MIT president Rafael Reif's decision to mark Epstein's post-conviction donations to MIT as anonymous.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    > This article was probably written to defend MIT president... ...it's just wildly implausible, or is that me? The author of this piece on game theory has written it at the behest of Reif, or to support Reif...somehow? I promise you Reif has no idea about this article.
    - selfishgene 6y ago
      Of course he does. Newspapers around the world are trying to hold these universities to account for what happened here. The anonymous donations issue is a HUGE part of this. Trust me. https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-epstein-les-wexner-l-brands-victoria-secret-limited https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/7/10/20689134/jeffrey-eps... https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-jet-2019-9 https://www.insider.com/epstein-riyadh-saudi-arabia-private-... https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-unsealed-docs/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/18/dubin-epstein-u... https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%E2%80%99s-much-more-story-2 https://columbusfreepress.com/article/jeffrey-epstein-there%... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-from-wexner-why-didnt-wexner-sue.html#:~:text=Leslie%20Wexner%2C%20the%20billionaire%20founder%20of%20Limited%20Brands,%E2%80%9Cmisappropriated%E2%80%9D%20more%20than%20%2446%20million%20of%20his%20wealth https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/if-epstein-stole-fro.... https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation-about-jeffrey-epstein https://dealbreaker.com/2019/08/les-wexner-writes-foundation... https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-homosexuality-shortly-death-will-make-cringe-20190814 https://www.queerty.com/jeffrey-epsteins-chilling-remarks-ho... https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-epsteins-finances-reveals-trust-and-payments-2019-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/investigation-of-jeffrey-eps... ... and more and more to come for sure as criminal prosecution of Mr. Epstein's most famous "recruiter" gets underway, the daughter of disgraced publishing magnate Robert Maxwell.
whiddershins 6y ago
This is only half true. The overwhelming majority of people just aren’t as consistent as we tend to believe they are. So, in real life, a person can be extremely rigorous and honest in one area of life, and much less so in another.

GauntletWizard 6y ago

Immorality is a proxy of judgement and poor definitions. The most cogent definition of “Immoral” or argument that someone is “Immoral” would be contrasting how the subject’s definition of “Good” differs from your own or the common view. Very few people go out seeking to do evil. Most seek to do good, but by their own definition (which can be selfish, misguided, or outright vile). Some simply don’t care; Their absence of moral judgement (amorality) can lead to many immoral actions when their desires come into contact with others interests, but for the most part society is organized to promote the idea that your own best interests are best served by acting in the common good. If this sounds circular - It is. There’s no definition of morality from axiom[1]. Studies are (where possible) Double-Blind for a reason. The judgement of a researcher obviously affects study design. The goals of a researcher affect the way data is interpreted and presented in subtle and non-subtle ways. That’s not to mention the possibility of academic misconduct or outright fraud, which is axiomatically related to poor moral behavior. [1] In actuality, there are many, but most have obvious flaws and contradictions.

polytely 6y ago

You can, but I found it very helpful to know that upvoting this boosts the signal of someone who I despise. So now I can just skip reading this.

MrRiddle 6y ago

You mean: “I’ll toss him a few coins if I like his show, I don’t care if he’s a paedophile”?

PunchTornado 6y ago
you mean you wouldn't read good research or watch good art because the creator does something bad in his private life?
- MrRiddle 6y ago
  No, I mean I wouldn’t pay them. I would try to not benefit them in any way.

alisonkisk 6y ago

House of Cards is fiction. Is this research acceptable as a work of fiction? OK, sure.

mattkrause 6y ago
Kevin Spacey is real though....