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I replaced my 3-series BMW with a Honda Odyssey, and I've spent two years singing its praises. Part of the problem is that we have created a culture that uses c

by ynniv 6y ago

I replaced my 3-series BMW with a Honda Odyssey, and I've spent two years singing its praises. Part of the problem is that we have created a culture that uses cars as a form of self expression, and many early parents aren't ready to "be" a minivan. But the minivan is what you actually want as a parent: room for six people of any size, or four people and at least twice as much cargo as an SUV, with safe, remote control doors that can be operated by kids. It's a living room on wheels, including the TV. Honda is trying to bridge the identify gap a little with paddle shifting, ventilated seats, and almost 300hp, but really we should try to step back from seeing the car as an expression of who we are, and try to optimize for the functionality that we use every day. As much fun as it was to drive the BMW, finding a way to fit my growing family into it was a stressful mess and I'm happy to have found, perhaps unintentionally, a much better situation. Some of this insight came to me from Steve Kaufer of TripAdvisor, who at the time I was there was running a $4B company and driving an old minivan, because that's what his family fit in. He never cared for a fancy new car because fancy meant small and he wasn't out to impress anyone on the road anyway. But I also can't pretend that Honda's naturally aspirated 6-cylinder and perfectly matched 10-speed (domestic!) paddle shifter didn't help seal the deal in my garage.

ImprovedSilence 6y ago
Im all about the minivan, and completely agree with everything you're saying here. Ive been getting my wife prepped for one when the time comes, and i think shes come around to see how much they just make sense. Also doesnt hurt that a few friends actually expressed their regret going suv over the van.
- tomcam 6y ago
  Your instincts are good. I have a top-of-the-line SUV that cost three times what my top-of-the-line minivan did, and the minivan smokes it in most ways (driving performance excepted). If I had to choose between the two I would take the minivan any day of the week, though I’d miss the extra hundred horsepower going up the hill to my house.
zetazzed 6y ago
When my wife and I were discussing whether to have a third kid, the "we can justify a minivan now" argument was a big push in favor! If you think it's uncool, just remember -- if you buy a sports car, there is always someone out there with a cooler sports car. But you can buy THE BEST minivan in the world for ~$40k. Minivans also tend to go heavy on tech and comfort features relative to their price point. Yes, they suck to parallel park in the city, but 360 cameras and ultrasonics have made that much easier than it used to be. Really recommended!
- iaw 6y ago
  My problem with minivans (as opposed to good sports cars) is that they drive like crap. I have never encountered (or heard of) a van that drove well with one exception [1] [1] I remember reading about a volkswagen bus that had been modified heavily with Porsche components to the point it could drive and accelerate better than any van had a right to.
  - uniclaude 6y ago
    The Alphard V6 really isn’t that bad to drive. We’re not talking Porsche of course (and why would we? Topic is carrying kids safely), but it is a really pleasant drive.
  - ynniv 6y ago
    Have you driven a recent one? It's not hard to get a test drive. Try holding the Odyssey over 6000 rpm in sport-manual and see if it's a boring van.
  - zeroonetwothree 6y ago
    Odyssey is pretty good. Have you tried it?
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    I had a VW Vanagon and thought it handled well. Nearly perfect 50:50 weight distribution on front and rear wheels and a super tight turning radius. That thing could do a U-turn on a two-lane road. Power was pretty pathetic though. It would do 70mph, maybe 72 on the highway.
irrational 6y ago
Twice as much cargo as an SUV? We have both a minivan (Toyota sienna) and an SUV (Chevy Suburban) and the SUV easily has quadruple the cargo space as the minivan.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- fnord77 6y ago
  Sienna 33.5 ft³, 101 ft³ seats down Suburban 41.5 ft³, 144.7 ft³ Suburban is almost 2 feet longer.
  - irrational 6y ago
    What year Sienna? Ours is from 2000 and is tiny compared to modern Siennas.
- ynniv 6y ago
  A Suburban is a "full size SUV", which weighs, drives, and has the fuel economy of a truck. Minivans are closer in size, weight, fuel economy, and cost to the car derived "mid size SUVs", but they have much more cargo space. Still, the Odyssey claims roughly the same amount of "maximum interior cargo volume" as the Suburban, and almost twice that of the "most popular SUV", the midsize Ford Explorer. It's highly optimized for providing interior space: where the spare tire should be is a deep tub for cargo or to hold the folded down rear seats. The actual spare tire is located in the second row footwell, though you could never tell.
- gwd 6y ago
  Can you move an upright piano in it? The thing that finally turned me off to SUVs was when I managed to find an upright piano for $200, and none of my friends with SUVs could help me move it -- I ended up borrowing my mom's minivan (with the seats taken out). At that point I decided that sure, an SUV looks more "manly", but I'd rather have a vehicle that can actually get the job done.
  - 6y ago
chett 6y ago
I recommend an aftermarket trailer hitch as well for the minivan. Our last vacation we fit 2, adults, 2 kids, our dog in his full sized crate, all of our luggage, and 4 bicycles on a hitch rack. Pretty sweet!
tomcam 6y ago
I own a Porsche 911, a Mercedes GL 550, and a Toyota Sienna XLE. I like cars. However, one of my best friends never told me he was going to the annual car show, despite the fact that we often have lunch together. When I asked why he said it was because I had mentioned that I think the minivan is a peak of automotive greatness. He comes from the Detroit area, and literally assumed I didn’t care about cars simply because I like minivans! Also, I may be a bit on the spectrum because I simply do not think about cars as a means of self expression. I don’t spend $120,000 on a car because I think it would impress somebody. I am a lousy mind reader and have no idea what people would think about what I drive, nor do I judge people on what they drive. That is bizarre to me.
- wirthjason 6y ago
  Don’t leave us hanging. Why is the minivan peak of automotive greatness, particularly in comparison to the other cars you mentioned. I would surly think a 911 is a much superior machine.
  - tomcam 6y ago
    Easily the most practical car since the Model T. For sheer pleasure driving, of course the 911. But a minivan can carry a big family or you can drop the back seats and slot in a stack of 4x8 plywood sheets without a sweat while keeping them covered, which most pickups can’t handle too well anymore. The high end models have ridiculously comfortable seats. You can camp in a minivan. They’re smooth and quiet to drive. They cost little to maintain. In Toyotas, at least, the leather seats are nearly indestructible and barely take on dirt. The remote operated side doors and elevated floors make getting babies into the car seats a doddle. Tall people fit fine. Moms feel safer driving high. They come with 110v outlets. (The vans, not the moms.) They are easily the most versatile cars on the road. Nothing else comes remotely close.
  - KozmoNau7 6y ago
    They way I see it, a 911 (or any sports car, really) is for when you want to drive for the sake of driving. In any other use case, it is an impractical compromise, because it was built for a specific purpose. The 911 may even be the most practical sports car, others are much less usable day-to-day. If you choose to daily drive a Porsche, you choose a specific compromise. For driving fast and giving you that fizz of being in control of a powerful machine, obviously it's superior to a minivan, because that's what it was designed to do. You can certainly drive yourself and one other person on a weekend trip in a 911, no doubt. Anything beyond that quickly becomes a hassle, unless you go for a roof rack or a roof box, which is not ideal. It makes the car top-heavy and is not nearly as secure as packing things inside the car. There is also the issue of suspension travel and ground clearance, again the 911 is better and more comfortable than a lot of other sports cars in this respect, but it is still quite firm and has low ground clearance. A minivan carries more people in comfort, holds more luggage inside the car hidden from prying eyes, it has better gas mileage and it is cheaper to purchase and service. It does vastly more things better than a 911, which only does a few things exceptionally well. Personally, I would rather drive a minivan with my friends and our gear to a cabin far in the woods for a week or two of vacation, than I would take a 911 for a drive on public roads or a track day. The minivan is better at the things most people want/need. Unfortunately, they have been swayed towards SUVs and trucks and sports cars by marketing.
asiachick 6y ago
I find it interesting just how much cars are part of certain cultures. Living in Tokyo of my hundreds of acquaintances I think I know 3 that own a car. Family or no. I know that's not possible in many places though I kind of wish it was more common.
- 3np 6y ago
  Once you get out of the bigger cities, having a car is basically expected in the rest of Japan - layout and planning of smaller cities reflect this a lot. Car ownership can be really cheap as well - parking space is a major cost factor in Tokyo. Not meaning to counter your point, just pointing out that there are some significant culture differences between metropolises/smaller cities/countryside within the same country
- wirthjason 6y ago
  I know 3 immediate family/ relatives who have a car in Tokyo (all are living the 23). My wife’s cousin even has a nice old school Cadillac Escalade he imported from the US (it’s American style left hand drive). That said he likes cars and motorcycles, he’s also a bus driver to Seibu. I’m always impressed by the skill it takes to drive a bus around Tokyo. I find renting a car in Tokyo super easy. It enables so many things like small day trips. We got one last week to go to the zoo. Often it’s easier to rent a car than take the train to Saitama. So even when you don’t own a car it’s still very accessible and affordable. Per the article, minivans kinda suck in the US. Japanese ones are much cooler. I think there wouldn’t be as much minivan stigma in the US of Japan exported some of those designs.
Ntrails 6y ago
> It's a living room on wheels, including the TV. I remain bemused at the idea a tv is a necessity for family car journeys. I would not want one in anything I was driving.
- dmm 6y ago
  Our minivan came with one and we've literally never used it. After a while the kids stop asking. I think we keep a dvd in the van in case we're stuck somewhere with nothing to do but it's never come up.

by ynniv 6y ago

ImprovedSilence 6y ago

Im all about the minivan, and completely agree with everything you're saying here. Ive been getting my wife prepped for one when the time comes, and i think shes come around to see how much they just make sense. Also doesnt hurt that a few friends actually expressed their regret going suv over the van.

tomcam 6y ago
Your instincts are good. I have a top-of-the-line SUV that cost three times what my top-of-the-line minivan did, and the minivan smokes it in most ways (driving performance excepted). If I had to choose between the two I would take the minivan any day of the week, though I’d miss the extra hundred horsepower going up the hill to my house.

zetazzed 6y ago

When my wife and I were discussing whether to have a third kid, the "we can justify a minivan now" argument was a big push in favor! If you think it's uncool, just remember -- if you buy a sports car, there is always someone out there with a cooler sports car. But you can buy THE BEST minivan in the world for ~$40k. Minivans also tend to go heavy on tech and comfort features relative to their price point. Yes, they suck to parallel park in the city, but 360 cameras and ultrasonics have made that much easier than it used to be. Really recommended!

iaw 6y ago
My problem with minivans (as opposed to good sports cars) is that they drive like crap. I have never encountered (or heard of) a van that drove well with one exception [1] [1] I remember reading about a volkswagen bus that had been modified heavily with Porsche components to the point it could drive and accelerate better than any van had a right to.
- uniclaude 6y ago
  The Alphard V6 really isn’t that bad to drive. We’re not talking Porsche of course (and why would we? Topic is carrying kids safely), but it is a really pleasant drive.
- ynniv 6y ago
  Have you driven a recent one? It's not hard to get a test drive. Try holding the Odyssey over 6000 rpm in sport-manual and see if it's a boring van.
- zeroonetwothree 6y ago
  Odyssey is pretty good. Have you tried it?
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  I had a VW Vanagon and thought it handled well. Nearly perfect 50:50 weight distribution on front and rear wheels and a super tight turning radius. That thing could do a U-turn on a two-lane road. Power was pretty pathetic though. It would do 70mph, maybe 72 on the highway.

irrational 6y ago

Twice as much cargo as an SUV? We have both a minivan (Toyota sienna) and an SUV (Chevy Suburban) and the SUV easily has quadruple the cargo space as the minivan.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fnord77 6y ago
Sienna 33.5 ft³, 101 ft³ seats down Suburban 41.5 ft³, 144.7 ft³ Suburban is almost 2 feet longer.
- irrational 6y ago
  What year Sienna? Ours is from 2000 and is tiny compared to modern Siennas.
ynniv 6y ago
A Suburban is a "full size SUV", which weighs, drives, and has the fuel economy of a truck. Minivans are closer in size, weight, fuel economy, and cost to the car derived "mid size SUVs", but they have much more cargo space. Still, the Odyssey claims roughly the same amount of "maximum interior cargo volume" as the Suburban, and almost twice that of the "most popular SUV", the midsize Ford Explorer. It's highly optimized for providing interior space: where the spare tire should be is a deep tub for cargo or to hold the folded down rear seats. The actual spare tire is located in the second row footwell, though you could never tell.
gwd 6y ago
Can you move an upright piano in it? The thing that finally turned me off to SUVs was when I managed to find an upright piano for $200, and none of my friends with SUVs could help me move it -- I ended up borrowing my mom's minivan (with the seats taken out). At that point I decided that sure, an SUV looks more "manly", but I'd rather have a vehicle that can actually get the job done.
- 6y ago

chett 6y ago

I recommend an aftermarket trailer hitch as well for the minivan. Our last vacation we fit 2, adults, 2 kids, our dog in his full sized crate, all of our luggage, and 4 bicycles on a hitch rack. Pretty sweet!

tomcam 6y ago

I own a Porsche 911, a Mercedes GL 550, and a Toyota Sienna XLE. I like cars. However, one of my best friends never told me he was going to the annual car show, despite the fact that we often have lunch together. When I asked why he said it was because I had mentioned that I think the minivan is a peak of automotive greatness. He comes from the Detroit area, and literally assumed I didn’t care about cars simply because I like minivans! Also, I may be a bit on the spectrum because I simply do not think about cars as a means of self expression. I don’t spend $120,000 on a car because I think it would impress somebody. I am a lousy mind reader and have no idea what people would think about what I drive, nor do I judge people on what they drive. That is bizarre to me.

wirthjason 6y ago
Don’t leave us hanging. Why is the minivan peak of automotive greatness, particularly in comparison to the other cars you mentioned. I would surly think a 911 is a much superior machine.
- tomcam 6y ago
  Easily the most practical car since the Model T. For sheer pleasure driving, of course the 911. But a minivan can carry a big family or you can drop the back seats and slot in a stack of 4x8 plywood sheets without a sweat while keeping them covered, which most pickups can’t handle too well anymore. The high end models have ridiculously comfortable seats. You can camp in a minivan. They’re smooth and quiet to drive. They cost little to maintain. In Toyotas, at least, the leather seats are nearly indestructible and barely take on dirt. The remote operated side doors and elevated floors make getting babies into the car seats a doddle. Tall people fit fine. Moms feel safer driving high. They come with 110v outlets. (The vans, not the moms.) They are easily the most versatile cars on the road. Nothing else comes remotely close.
- KozmoNau7 6y ago
  They way I see it, a 911 (or any sports car, really) is for when you want to drive for the sake of driving. In any other use case, it is an impractical compromise, because it was built for a specific purpose. The 911 may even be the most practical sports car, others are much less usable day-to-day. If you choose to daily drive a Porsche, you choose a specific compromise. For driving fast and giving you that fizz of being in control of a powerful machine, obviously it's superior to a minivan, because that's what it was designed to do. You can certainly drive yourself and one other person on a weekend trip in a 911, no doubt. Anything beyond that quickly becomes a hassle, unless you go for a roof rack or a roof box, which is not ideal. It makes the car top-heavy and is not nearly as secure as packing things inside the car. There is also the issue of suspension travel and ground clearance, again the 911 is better and more comfortable than a lot of other sports cars in this respect, but it is still quite firm and has low ground clearance. A minivan carries more people in comfort, holds more luggage inside the car hidden from prying eyes, it has better gas mileage and it is cheaper to purchase and service. It does vastly more things better than a 911, which only does a few things exceptionally well. Personally, I would rather drive a minivan with my friends and our gear to a cabin far in the woods for a week or two of vacation, than I would take a 911 for a drive on public roads or a track day. The minivan is better at the things most people want/need. Unfortunately, they have been swayed towards SUVs and trucks and sports cars by marketing.

asiachick 6y ago

I find it interesting just how much cars are part of certain cultures. Living in Tokyo of my hundreds of acquaintances I think I know 3 that own a car. Family or no. I know that's not possible in many places though I kind of wish it was more common.

3np 6y ago
Once you get out of the bigger cities, having a car is basically expected in the rest of Japan - layout and planning of smaller cities reflect this a lot. Car ownership can be really cheap as well - parking space is a major cost factor in Tokyo. Not meaning to counter your point, just pointing out that there are some significant culture differences between metropolises/smaller cities/countryside within the same country
wirthjason 6y ago
I know 3 immediate family/ relatives who have a car in Tokyo (all are living the 23). My wife’s cousin even has a nice old school Cadillac Escalade he imported from the US (it’s American style left hand drive). That said he likes cars and motorcycles, he’s also a bus driver to Seibu. I’m always impressed by the skill it takes to drive a bus around Tokyo. I find renting a car in Tokyo super easy. It enables so many things like small day trips. We got one last week to go to the zoo. Often it’s easier to rent a car than take the train to Saitama. So even when you don’t own a car it’s still very accessible and affordable. Per the article, minivans kinda suck in the US. Japanese ones are much cooler. I think there wouldn’t be as much minivan stigma in the US of Japan exported some of those designs.

Ntrails 6y ago

> It's a living room on wheels, including the TV. I remain bemused at the idea a tv is a necessity for family car journeys. I would not want one in anything I was driving.

dmm 6y ago
Our minivan came with one and we've literally never used it. After a while the kids stop asking. I think we keep a dvd in the van in case we're stuck somewhere with nothing to do but it's never come up.