6 ms·

A Book about Aircraft Scale Drawings Creating with Inkscape and Gimp

126 points by app4soft 6y ago

asab 6y ago
I’ve used Inkscape for about 10 hours, and found it tough to use. Do you automate or script any of this process?
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  That program is a Rorschach test for how people’s brains work. It’s either delightfully clunky and you totally get how it’s going to function, or is the biggest piece of shit you’ve ever touched and it is confusing why anyone would recommend it. I am highly skeptical there is much middle ground.
  - egypturnash 6y ago
    Illustrator has a lot of this too despite many different UI decisions. I tend to describe it as “designed for aliens and people who think like aliens”. Which includes me, it’s been my main art tool for twenty years. I’ve seen a lot of people scream about how terrible it is that it doesn’t work like Photoshop. So really I think that “a serious vector editor” is just gonna be hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around.
    - app4soft 6y ago
      > Illustrator has a lot of this too despite many different UI decisions... I’ve seen a lot of people scream about how terrible it is that it doesn’t work like Photoshop. Try sK1[0], Scribus[1] & AzPainter[2] ;) [0] https://sk1project.net/sk1/ https://sk1project.net/sk1/ [1] https://www.scribus.net/ https://www.scribus.net/ [2] https://github.com/Symbian9/azpainter https://github.com/Symbian9/azpainter
    - exmadscientist 6y ago
      It's also interesting that the two editors seem to work for different people. I learned with Illustrator many years ago and can still use it decently well, though I rarely do so. At work I've attempted to use Inkscape, not having an Illustrator license, and completely failed every time I try. You'd think one lightly-used (so no deep muscle memory, etc.) vector graphics program would be much the same as another... nope.
  - bsder 6y ago
    > It’s either delightfully clunky and you totally get how it’s going to function, or is the biggest piece of shit you’ve ever touched and it is confusing why anyone would recommend it. It is merely a domain-specific program and requires specific training to use effectively. This is true of Photoshop, GIMP, Inkscape, Illustrator, AutoCAD, Altium, etc.
    - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
      I taught myself photoshop, GIMP, autocad, solidworks, and Altium, all to reasonable proficiency. Personally couldn’t figure the first thing out with Inkscape. Another comment nailed it, they made literally alien UI choices.
      - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
        As someone prone to the same failings I don't think they made alien UI choices, I think they made programmer UI choices where the programmers were struggling to make a reasonable UI choice, like the programmer's initial idea is to just make a text box and write a value but then they realize that is bad so they need to make some sort of interface to do it and they don't really have any taste about how any of the stuff should be laid out but they have looked at other graphical editors of course so they have sort of an idea of what is wanted. It does not feel designed, it feels laid out by a programmer mimicking some other graphical editor from memory on an ad hoc basis.
  - tomcam 6y ago
    Go talk about Vim someplace else
- app4soft 6y ago
  > I’ve used Inkscape for about 10 hours, and found it tough to use. Do you automate or script any of this process? You mean converting scanned drawings image into scale drawings vector form?
- chongli 6y ago
  I last used Inkscape in anger about 4 years ago. I had gotten pretty effective with it. Lately I’ve found it to have slowed down dramatically. I can’t understand why they would’ve allowed its performance to regress so dramatically. It’s become unbearable to use for seemingly no difference in functionality. Having said all that, it still makes sense to me, for the most part. I watched a lot of tutorials when I learned it back in the day, however.
  - m463 6y ago
    Are there ways to make inkscape work more... symbolically/logically? I tried making an SVG manually, using real basic integer coordinates. Then I wondered if inkscape could do better, and imported it. It took my nice shapes, like a rectangle from 0,0 to 50,100 and mangled all the coordinates into floating point numbers like 0.0123,0.00456 49.9998,100.00123 (not exactly, but you get the idea)
    - platypii 6y ago
      I work in inkscape a lot, and aesthetically like to keep things aligned on integers where possible. Makes it easier to edit by hand if needed, keeps things aligned, and keeps files small. You have to be careful about when you move, scale, group, ungroup, etc. But I have found it pretty reasonable to stay on nice round numbers with inkscape. I feel like inkspace is BETTER for that than say illustrator. Worst case you can export as "Optimized SVG" and reduce the number of decimals. Make sure you check it after though since it can change the design when rounding.
    - buckminster 6y ago
      Inkscape includes the border width in the displayed object size and position. So an SVG file with a 100 units square and a 1 unit border will be a 101 units square in Inkscape. And if you change the stroke width the object size changes. This causes the coordinate mangling you saw. Consequently, I find it impossible to do precise CAD style diagrams in Inkscape. Of course, it's not designed for that.
  - nmfisher 6y ago
    It used to be rock-solid, too, but recently it's becoming quite buggy (at least on Windows). I don't know exactly when/which version, but some time in the last 12-18 months.
- tannhaeuser 6y ago
  Since it's "just SVG" the beauty of it is you can use any XML tool or just a text editor. Inkscape needs some getting used to for sure but still is a very capable vector graphics editor and I'm glad it exists. Not sure we'd be able to put in the effort into a new tool of this depth if we were to start today (same with GIMP). I noticed some regression on Ubuntu 18/20 though: the integrated XML editor crashed, and the weird property dialog sometimes doesn't pan into view. Don't know if that has something to do with Ubuntu or gtk/gnome specifically, but Ubuntu Studio appears to have moved to KDE (or alternatively XFCE) recently. And switching to a KDE-based distro such as OpenSuse or Manjaro (or Studio) is what I'm planning to do anyway.
aerovistae 6y ago
Wow that is a hard title to parse. Had to read it four times to be sure there was no sensible way to interpret it and that it was definitely missing a word or punctuation.
- daotoad 6y ago
  I think it's supposed to be "Created" not "Creating".
  - app4soft 6y ago
    As it is guide on app usage, "creating" is the right way to describe which apps this guide is written for.
    - sanjay_316 6y ago
      not in that position no
    - khr 6y ago
      In that case, perhaps "A Book about Creating Aircraft Scale Drawings with Inkscape and Gimp" would be more appropriate?
      - app4soft 6y ago
        Yep. If there are HN mods here, please, set title as mentioned above.
- noahtallen 6y ago
  The original article title is “A book about aircraft scale drawings”. So I guess that book was created with Inkscape and Gimp!
  - usr1106 6y ago
    Either way, the title should not be "improved" according to HN submission guidelines.
iamanhonestman 6y ago
Wow that is a hard title to parse. Had to read it four times to be sure there was no sensible way to interpret it and that it was definitely missing a word or punctuation.
- enchiridion 6y ago
  @dang is this some bot activity? Same exact comment from two different accounts.
tomcam 6y ago
This person is a hero. At least on the Macintosh, I find it simply too slow and unstable. Donated to the cause but left with regrets. Is it perhaps easier to work on long-term on other platforms?
- app4soft 6y ago
  > At least on the Macintosh, I find it simply too slow and unstable. Under "it" you mean Inkscape? GIMP? Blender?
  - tomcam 6y ago
    Inkscape! Sorry
rambojazz 6y ago
And what is the license of the book?
- app4soft 6y ago
  Previous editions of the «Virtual Airplane» book (as PDF-file) licensed under "CC-BY-NC-ND", where Polish version is free to download, and you may buy English version to support Witold (+ pay PL-to-EN translators work). Also "CC-BY-NC-ND" allows You to create commercial airplanes 3D models, but redistribution or modification of book itself is not permitted (at least without Witold's permission). Few years ago I contacted with Witold via e-mail & asked him for give me permission to translate 1st Edition[0] of this book (which was written for Blender 2.4x) from Polish to Ukrainian under "CC-BY-NC-ND" — as result he provided me a DOC-file (book draft) ;) JFTR, I'm still a happy user of Blender 2.49b[1,2] ;P [0] http://airplanes3d.net/wm-009_p.xml http://airplanes3d.net/wm-009_p.xml [1] https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1274084993179009024 https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1274084993179009024 [2] https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1280958729127628821 https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1280958729127628821
  - app4soft 6y ago
    > but redistribution of book itself is not permitted Correction: redistribution in unmodified form is allowed (under terms of CC-BY-NC-ND), but resale of book is not permitted.
rurounijones 6y ago
All things aside. This is over 3,000 pages of guide to building 3D aicraft models from reference drawings. And the polish version is free. Holy hell is that a valuable resource.
- app4soft 6y ago
  Yeah! > And the Polish version is free.[0] And some excerpts from English version free to download too.[1] Additionally, there are a lot useful staff[2] (for Blender, Inkscape & GIMP) + finished sample 3D models[3] freely available to download on Witold's site. NOTE: Actually on Airplanes3D site available 3rd Edition of "Virtual Airplane" (pol. "Wirtualne modelarstwo"), and announced Volume I of the 4th Edition would be released next in January 2021, as Witold says. [0] http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_p.xml http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_p.xml [1] http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_e.xml http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_e.xml [2] http://airplanes3d.net/scripts-250_e.xml http://airplanes3d.net/scripts-250_e.xml [3] http://airplanes3d.net/model-000_e.xml http://airplanes3d.net/model-000_e.xml
codpiece 6y ago
What an incredible book, what a labor of love. Bravo!

126 points by app4soft 6y ago

asab 6y ago

I’ve used Inkscape for about 10 hours, and found it tough to use. Do you automate or script any of this process?

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
That program is a Rorschach test for how people’s brains work. It’s either delightfully clunky and you totally get how it’s going to function, or is the biggest piece of shit you’ve ever touched and it is confusing why anyone would recommend it. I am highly skeptical there is much middle ground.
- egypturnash 6y ago
  Illustrator has a lot of this too despite many different UI decisions. I tend to describe it as “designed for aliens and people who think like aliens”. Which includes me, it’s been my main art tool for twenty years. I’ve seen a lot of people scream about how terrible it is that it doesn’t work like Photoshop. So really I think that “a serious vector editor” is just gonna be hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around.
  - app4soft 6y ago
    > Illustrator has a lot of this too despite many different UI decisions... I’ve seen a lot of people scream about how terrible it is that it doesn’t work like Photoshop. Try sK1[0], Scribus[1] & AzPainter[2] ;) [0] https://sk1project.net/sk1/ https://sk1project.net/sk1/ [1] https://www.scribus.net/ https://www.scribus.net/ [2] https://github.com/Symbian9/azpainter https://github.com/Symbian9/azpainter
  - exmadscientist 6y ago
    It's also interesting that the two editors seem to work for different people. I learned with Illustrator many years ago and can still use it decently well, though I rarely do so. At work I've attempted to use Inkscape, not having an Illustrator license, and completely failed every time I try. You'd think one lightly-used (so no deep muscle memory, etc.) vector graphics program would be much the same as another... nope.
- bsder 6y ago
  > It’s either delightfully clunky and you totally get how it’s going to function, or is the biggest piece of shit you’ve ever touched and it is confusing why anyone would recommend it. It is merely a domain-specific program and requires specific training to use effectively. This is true of Photoshop, GIMP, Inkscape, Illustrator, AutoCAD, Altium, etc.
  - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
    I taught myself photoshop, GIMP, autocad, solidworks, and Altium, all to reasonable proficiency. Personally couldn’t figure the first thing out with Inkscape. Another comment nailed it, they made literally alien UI choices.
    - bryanrasmussen 6y ago
      As someone prone to the same failings I don't think they made alien UI choices, I think they made programmer UI choices where the programmers were struggling to make a reasonable UI choice, like the programmer's initial idea is to just make a text box and write a value but then they realize that is bad so they need to make some sort of interface to do it and they don't really have any taste about how any of the stuff should be laid out but they have looked at other graphical editors of course so they have sort of an idea of what is wanted. It does not feel designed, it feels laid out by a programmer mimicking some other graphical editor from memory on an ad hoc basis.
- tomcam 6y ago
  Go talk about Vim someplace else
app4soft 6y ago
> I’ve used Inkscape for about 10 hours, and found it tough to use. Do you automate or script any of this process? You mean converting scanned drawings image into scale drawings vector form?
chongli 6y ago
I last used Inkscape in anger about 4 years ago. I had gotten pretty effective with it. Lately I’ve found it to have slowed down dramatically. I can’t understand why they would’ve allowed its performance to regress so dramatically. It’s become unbearable to use for seemingly no difference in functionality. Having said all that, it still makes sense to me, for the most part. I watched a lot of tutorials when I learned it back in the day, however.
- m463 6y ago
  Are there ways to make inkscape work more... symbolically/logically? I tried making an SVG manually, using real basic integer coordinates. Then I wondered if inkscape could do better, and imported it. It took my nice shapes, like a rectangle from 0,0 to 50,100 and mangled all the coordinates into floating point numbers like 0.0123,0.00456 49.9998,100.00123 (not exactly, but you get the idea)
  - platypii 6y ago
    I work in inkscape a lot, and aesthetically like to keep things aligned on integers where possible. Makes it easier to edit by hand if needed, keeps things aligned, and keeps files small. You have to be careful about when you move, scale, group, ungroup, etc. But I have found it pretty reasonable to stay on nice round numbers with inkscape. I feel like inkspace is BETTER for that than say illustrator. Worst case you can export as "Optimized SVG" and reduce the number of decimals. Make sure you check it after though since it can change the design when rounding.
  - buckminster 6y ago
    Inkscape includes the border width in the displayed object size and position. So an SVG file with a 100 units square and a 1 unit border will be a 101 units square in Inkscape. And if you change the stroke width the object size changes. This causes the coordinate mangling you saw. Consequently, I find it impossible to do precise CAD style diagrams in Inkscape. Of course, it's not designed for that.
- nmfisher 6y ago
  It used to be rock-solid, too, but recently it's becoming quite buggy (at least on Windows). I don't know exactly when/which version, but some time in the last 12-18 months.
tannhaeuser 6y ago
Since it's "just SVG" the beauty of it is you can use any XML tool or just a text editor. Inkscape needs some getting used to for sure but still is a very capable vector graphics editor and I'm glad it exists. Not sure we'd be able to put in the effort into a new tool of this depth if we were to start today (same with GIMP). I noticed some regression on Ubuntu 18/20 though: the integrated XML editor crashed, and the weird property dialog sometimes doesn't pan into view. Don't know if that has something to do with Ubuntu or gtk/gnome specifically, but Ubuntu Studio appears to have moved to KDE (or alternatively XFCE) recently. And switching to a KDE-based distro such as OpenSuse or Manjaro (or Studio) is what I'm planning to do anyway.

aerovistae 6y ago

Wow that is a hard title to parse. Had to read it four times to be sure there was no sensible way to interpret it and that it was definitely missing a word or punctuation.

daotoad 6y ago
I think it's supposed to be "Created" not "Creating".
- app4soft 6y ago
  As it is guide on app usage, "creating" is the right way to describe which apps this guide is written for.
  - sanjay_316 6y ago
    not in that position no
  - khr 6y ago
    In that case, perhaps "A Book about Creating Aircraft Scale Drawings with Inkscape and Gimp" would be more appropriate?
    - app4soft 6y ago
      Yep. If there are HN mods here, please, set title as mentioned above.
noahtallen 6y ago
The original article title is “A book about aircraft scale drawings”. So I guess that book was created with Inkscape and Gimp!
- usr1106 6y ago
  Either way, the title should not be "improved" according to HN submission guidelines.

iamanhonestman 6y ago

Wow that is a hard title to parse. Had to read it four times to be sure there was no sensible way to interpret it and that it was definitely missing a word or punctuation.

enchiridion 6y ago
@dang is this some bot activity? Same exact comment from two different accounts.

tomcam 6y ago

This person is a hero. At least on the Macintosh, I find it simply too slow and unstable. Donated to the cause but left with regrets. Is it perhaps easier to work on long-term on other platforms?

app4soft 6y ago
> At least on the Macintosh, I find it simply too slow and unstable. Under "it" you mean Inkscape? GIMP? Blender?
- tomcam 6y ago
  Inkscape! Sorry

rambojazz 6y ago

And what is the license of the book?

app4soft 6y ago
Previous editions of the «Virtual Airplane» book (as PDF-file) licensed under "CC-BY-NC-ND", where Polish version is free to download, and you may buy English version to support Witold (+ pay PL-to-EN translators work). Also "CC-BY-NC-ND" allows You to create commercial airplanes 3D models, but redistribution or modification of book itself is not permitted (at least without Witold's permission). Few years ago I contacted with Witold via e-mail & asked him for give me permission to translate 1st Edition[0] of this book (which was written for Blender 2.4x) from Polish to Ukrainian under "CC-BY-NC-ND" — as result he provided me a DOC-file (book draft) ;) JFTR, I'm still a happy user of Blender 2.49b[1,2] ;P [0] http://airplanes3d.net/wm-009_p.xml http://airplanes3d.net/wm-009_p.xml [1] https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1274084993179009024 https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1274084993179009024 [2] https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1280958729127628821 https://nitter.net/app4soft/status/1280958729127628821
- app4soft 6y ago
  > but redistribution of book itself is not permitted Correction: redistribution in unmodified form is allowed (under terms of CC-BY-NC-ND), but resale of book is not permitted.

rurounijones 6y ago

All things aside. This is over 3,000 pages of guide to building 3D aicraft models from reference drawings. And the polish version is free. Holy hell is that a valuable resource.

app4soft 6y ago
Yeah! > And the Polish version is free.[0] And some excerpts from English version free to download too.[1] Additionally, there are a lot useful staff[2] (for Blender, Inkscape & GIMP) + finished sample 3D models[3] freely available to download on Witold's site. NOTE: Actually on Airplanes3D site available 3rd Edition of "Virtual Airplane" (pol. "Wirtualne modelarstwo"), and announced Volume I of the 4th Edition would be released next in January 2021, as Witold says. [0] http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_p.xml http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_p.xml [1] http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_e.xml http://airplanes3d.net/wm-000_e.xml [2] http://airplanes3d.net/scripts-250_e.xml http://airplanes3d.net/scripts-250_e.xml [3] http://airplanes3d.net/model-000_e.xml http://airplanes3d.net/model-000_e.xml

codpiece 6y ago

What an incredible book, what a labor of love. Bravo!