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"Their job is to protect the health of the pubic and work to mitigate the spread of a highly-contagious virus that will likely hit 2M global deaths in fairly sh

"Their job is to protect the health of the pubic and work to mitigate the spread of a highly-contagious virus that will likely hit 2M global deaths in fairly short order. " This is a good example of how heavy handed approach beats reasonable regulation. Somehow I should consent for cookies (which I don't even know what they do) on websites I explicitly visit but my consent not needed for collecting health data ? Having a cheap and simple covid test will greatly help arrest the spread of COVID whether or not FDA gets that data. Having said that there might be some marginal benefit for FDA to have some data for which the FDA should incentivize users by asking them to give consent, offer discounts and promise anonymisation. A lot of people will call me a Libertarian sshole for pointing this out, but remember a rogue admin like Trump weaponized various terrorism related programs to target large groups of immigrants. Later Miller used covid as a weapon against lot of immigrants effectively bringing entire immigration system to halt. Such collection of data will BE used against some undesirable groups in future and this is something people should fight against.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
gsk22 6y ago
How will one data point (did this person test positive?) be used against minority groups? I'm as skeptical of govt data collection as the next HNer, but I fail to see how this particular piece of information could be weaponized.
- mulmen 6y ago
  Off the top of my head: Micro: A positive test is reported to the FDA. DHS gets this information. It is determined the individual "exposed others to Coronavirus". A "common sense" remedy is applied like, say, prohibiting the individual from boarding airplanes. Individual is now on a possibly secret "no fly list" with terrorist connotations. Macro: Minority groups are skeptical of the government because of historic abuse. They tend to take fewer tests. Majority groups trust the government because of being treated well historically. They tend to take more tests. More cases are found in majority groups per capita because they took more tests per capita. Data shows more cases in majority areas. More resources are sent to majority areas. Minority areas are neglected and do not receive the resources they need. This perpetuates the experience of mistreatment and discourages future cooperation. The chilling effect is real, and concern is reasonable on the part of individuals. Who wants to defend a group of bioterrorists anyway?
  - asah 6y ago
    It certainly seems like a person oughta be able to opt-out... the data they need is all statistical anyway.
  - reissbaker 6y ago
    > With terrorist connotations. That went from a reasonable thing that might happen — you're temporarily prevented from boarding a plane while you are bearing a highly contagious, deadly illness that can spread to whoever you breath on — to... Now you're labeled a terrorist because you got sick? That seems like a pretty large leap. Especially since millions of Americans have already tested positive for COVID using the existing infrastructure (that reports to health authorities already) and none of this has happened. Why do you think having at-home tests will suddenly result in labeling every positive case a terrorist? > Who wants to defend a group of bioterrorists anyway? I feel like the main stretch of imagination here that I find difficult to believe is that everyone who contracts COVID (which will likely be millions more Americans) will be labeled a terrorist, because they took the test at home instead of at a doctor's office or testing site. The existing testing infrastructure that has tested millions upon millions of Americans, and found millions of positive cases, already reports to health authorities: why would having a more convenient test that does the same thing result in dystopian madness?
    - mulmen 6y ago
      > That went from a reasonable thing that might happen — you're temporarily prevented from boarding a plane while you are bearing a highly contagious, deadly illness that can spread to whoever you breath on — to... Now you're labeled a terrorist because you got sick? To be clear, I am not talking about temporarily preventing sick people from boarding planes. I'm talking about DHS drawing their own conclusions from FDA/medical data. The scare quotes on "common sense" were meant to point this out. Preventing infectious people from boarding a plane is reasonable. That means FDA may very well share data with DHS and feel perfectly fine about it. But how does DHS achieve this? Do they diligently maintain a list of diagnosed individuals and scrub names when those people are healthy? Or do they re-purpose an existing mechanism that has the desired immediate effect? The "no fly list" also contains terrorism suspects. These lists existed before Covid and contain names of people who have never been suspected of wrongdoing but just share a name with someone who is, or not, who knows. These individuals still live with the consequences of being suspected terrorists. This is the terrorist connotation I speak of. It is not a stretch. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases. > Why do you think having at-home tests will suddenly result in labeling every positive case a terrorist? I didn't say this. > I feel like the main stretch of imagination here that I find difficult to believe is that everyone who contracts COVID (which will likely be millions more Americans) will be labeled a terrorist,because they took the test at home instead of at a doctor's office or testing site. I didn't say everyone. In fact my hypothetical constructs a situation where minorities are disproportionately placed on the lists. The macro outcomes lead to micro outcomes which lead to further macro outcomes. This is systemic bias. Regarding the difference between home and on-site tests: is the home test data protected the same way as other tests? How many people have not been tested because they are afraid of a situation like my hypothetical? Can LEO get a search warrant for your home, find the testing device and retrieve the results? What if they search your phone?
- KorematsuFred 6y ago
  Thanks for asking this question. There is nothing "minority" about this, every group needs same protection and no one should be targeted. A reasonable person can not even guess how evil the government can get. - Trump wanted to target certain folks with work authorizations. There was no legal way for him do end the program easily. So he insisted they are a threat to national security. Then he demanded they submit their biometric data every time they want to renew they authorization/visa (note that DHS or State Dept. already have their biometric data). Then all they had to do was to reduce work force in the biometric collection centers. As a consequence now the processing of these visas/work authorizations can take upto 18 months. Which effectively forces these people out of jobs. This is being done in the name of protecting Americans from terrorism. There are number of ways this health data can be weaponized against immigrations or minorities. - A rogue administration can classify infected immigrants as a public threat. (If that sounds a stretch remember kids from Iran are already a public threat, and children of Indian H1B holders have to submit their fingerprints every 3 years to ensure they are not public threats). - If you ever have lied on any form about your covid infection or knowledge about it, but government data suggests you had covid during that time and you knew about it, that can be considered "bad moral character" and you naturalization can be denied or even revoked. - Imagine a poor neighborhood where a particular "undesirable" group lives and a lot of people there test positive, now government can engage in propaganda that this evil group is spreading COVID. Secondly, trust the creative ability of people like Stephen Miller to come up with more wide ranging excuses.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  We're still not sure how liability plays out in the courts in terms of going out into the community while potentially infected. From a legal standpoint, it's probably better to just not know, than to know and be on the hook for something. Again, that's from a personal, legal liability standpoint. Not at all from a public health standpoint or a moral/ethical standpoint.
netsharc 6y ago
Sheesh, it seems like you would be against everything just because the information can be used for bad things... To use your logic (at least how I'm interpreting it), we should also abolish driver licenses as well, because look, there's a database of people! With addresses, etc! And that would be a bad idea because untrained drivers may cause injury to others. The same logic applies to disease tracking, we have to know because someone might harm someone else. It's being measured so we know if prevention methods like lockdowns and masks are working. And just like a driver's license is not something you can volunteer to have (or not), neither should the knowledge of your virus status be optional. Imagine running a country and being asked "So, how is your country coping with the virus?", and answering "I don't know, we don't have the numbers."...
- bmeski 6y ago
  This is why we here in the US call it a free country. It is very different from the democratic freedoms of other countries. We founded this nation because of misuse of government power. You should always be skeptical of government oversight. Our constitution was written by very bright people who understood that mob rule and government overreach are very easy to fall into. Think of how phishing attempts sometimes use your emotions/anxieties against you, “Urgent, this is your boss, I need your email and PW to log in.” The same fear mongering has been used to shut down schools across the US when there is little statistical evidence showing spread occurs in schools. Many other nations know this and kids are still going to school. This is a prime example of when government overreach is entirely misguided and political. Edit: Thank goodness we still have free speech here. I fear many of our freedoms can easily be eradicated by the, “saving just one life,” argument. Edit edit: Also not trying to be too inflammatory but China has all the data in the world and they fudged the numbers they sent out. We already have entirely data driven societies and you can ask Hong Kong how much they wanted it.
  - netsharc 6y ago
    Your edit edit basically is what I argued against in my original reply.. "China gathers data, China abuses data, therefore all data gathering is baaaad!". As for the rest of your response, eh, this is reddit-level response, but: standard "American exceptionalism" masturbation. The sooner you figure out you're nothing special, the sooner the world will be a better place.
save_ferris 6y ago
> Having said that there might be some marginal benefit for FDA to have some data for which the FDA should incentivize users by asking them to give consent, offer discounts and promise anonymisation. If the executive branch (which the FDA falls under) is so far beyond reigning in that we have to resort to disabling an important functionality of government instead of improving the check on power (which is where I believe the focus should be), then why would you assume that they're being honest when they promise you that they're anonymizing your data? You're arguing that the executive branch is out of control but you're willing to trust them if they promise to anonymize the data they collect? That makes no sense to me. If you're going to use the "rogue administration" argument, then how exactly does FDA, which falls under the executive branch, not fall into the same rogue behavior category?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

gsk22 6y ago

How will one data point (did this person test positive?) be used against minority groups? I'm as skeptical of govt data collection as the next HNer, but I fail to see how this particular piece of information could be weaponized.

mulmen 6y ago
Off the top of my head: Micro: A positive test is reported to the FDA. DHS gets this information. It is determined the individual "exposed others to Coronavirus". A "common sense" remedy is applied like, say, prohibiting the individual from boarding airplanes. Individual is now on a possibly secret "no fly list" with terrorist connotations. Macro: Minority groups are skeptical of the government because of historic abuse. They tend to take fewer tests. Majority groups trust the government because of being treated well historically. They tend to take more tests. More cases are found in majority groups per capita because they took more tests per capita. Data shows more cases in majority areas. More resources are sent to majority areas. Minority areas are neglected and do not receive the resources they need. This perpetuates the experience of mistreatment and discourages future cooperation. The chilling effect is real, and concern is reasonable on the part of individuals. Who wants to defend a group of bioterrorists anyway?
- asah 6y ago
  It certainly seems like a person oughta be able to opt-out... the data they need is all statistical anyway.
- reissbaker 6y ago
  > With terrorist connotations. That went from a reasonable thing that might happen — you're temporarily prevented from boarding a plane while you are bearing a highly contagious, deadly illness that can spread to whoever you breath on — to... Now you're labeled a terrorist because you got sick? That seems like a pretty large leap. Especially since millions of Americans have already tested positive for COVID using the existing infrastructure (that reports to health authorities already) and none of this has happened. Why do you think having at-home tests will suddenly result in labeling every positive case a terrorist? > Who wants to defend a group of bioterrorists anyway? I feel like the main stretch of imagination here that I find difficult to believe is that everyone who contracts COVID (which will likely be millions more Americans) will be labeled a terrorist, because they took the test at home instead of at a doctor's office or testing site. The existing testing infrastructure that has tested millions upon millions of Americans, and found millions of positive cases, already reports to health authorities: why would having a more convenient test that does the same thing result in dystopian madness?
  - mulmen 6y ago
    > That went from a reasonable thing that might happen — you're temporarily prevented from boarding a plane while you are bearing a highly contagious, deadly illness that can spread to whoever you breath on — to... Now you're labeled a terrorist because you got sick? To be clear, I am not talking about temporarily preventing sick people from boarding planes. I'm talking about DHS drawing their own conclusions from FDA/medical data. The scare quotes on "common sense" were meant to point this out. Preventing infectious people from boarding a plane is reasonable. That means FDA may very well share data with DHS and feel perfectly fine about it. But how does DHS achieve this? Do they diligently maintain a list of diagnosed individuals and scrub names when those people are healthy? Or do they re-purpose an existing mechanism that has the desired immediate effect? The "no fly list" also contains terrorism suspects. These lists existed before Covid and contain names of people who have never been suspected of wrongdoing but just share a name with someone who is, or not, who knows. These individuals still live with the consequences of being suspected terrorists. This is the terrorist connotation I speak of. It is not a stretch. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases. > Why do you think having at-home tests will suddenly result in labeling every positive case a terrorist? I didn't say this. > I feel like the main stretch of imagination here that I find difficult to believe is that everyone who contracts COVID (which will likely be millions more Americans) will be labeled a terrorist,because they took the test at home instead of at a doctor's office or testing site. I didn't say everyone. In fact my hypothetical constructs a situation where minorities are disproportionately placed on the lists. The macro outcomes lead to micro outcomes which lead to further macro outcomes. This is systemic bias. Regarding the difference between home and on-site tests: is the home test data protected the same way as other tests? How many people have not been tested because they are afraid of a situation like my hypothetical? Can LEO get a search warrant for your home, find the testing device and retrieve the results? What if they search your phone?
KorematsuFred 6y ago
Thanks for asking this question. There is nothing "minority" about this, every group needs same protection and no one should be targeted. A reasonable person can not even guess how evil the government can get. - Trump wanted to target certain folks with work authorizations. There was no legal way for him do end the program easily. So he insisted they are a threat to national security. Then he demanded they submit their biometric data every time they want to renew they authorization/visa (note that DHS or State Dept. already have their biometric data). Then all they had to do was to reduce work force in the biometric collection centers. As a consequence now the processing of these visas/work authorizations can take upto 18 months. Which effectively forces these people out of jobs. This is being done in the name of protecting Americans from terrorism. There are number of ways this health data can be weaponized against immigrations or minorities. - A rogue administration can classify infected immigrants as a public threat. (If that sounds a stretch remember kids from Iran are already a public threat, and children of Indian H1B holders have to submit their fingerprints every 3 years to ensure they are not public threats). - If you ever have lied on any form about your covid infection or knowledge about it, but government data suggests you had covid during that time and you knew about it, that can be considered "bad moral character" and you naturalization can be denied or even revoked. - Imagine a poor neighborhood where a particular "undesirable" group lives and a lot of people there test positive, now government can engage in propaganda that this evil group is spreading COVID. Secondly, trust the creative ability of people like Stephen Miller to come up with more wide ranging excuses.
phobosanomaly 6y ago
We're still not sure how liability plays out in the courts in terms of going out into the community while potentially infected. From a legal standpoint, it's probably better to just not know, than to know and be on the hook for something. Again, that's from a personal, legal liability standpoint. Not at all from a public health standpoint or a moral/ethical standpoint.

netsharc 6y ago

Sheesh, it seems like you would be against everything just because the information can be used for bad things... To use your logic (at least how I'm interpreting it), we should also abolish driver licenses as well, because look, there's a database of people! With addresses, etc! And that would be a bad idea because untrained drivers may cause injury to others. The same logic applies to disease tracking, we have to know because someone might harm someone else. It's being measured so we know if prevention methods like lockdowns and masks are working. And just like a driver's license is not something you can volunteer to have (or not), neither should the knowledge of your virus status be optional. Imagine running a country and being asked "So, how is your country coping with the virus?", and answering "I don't know, we don't have the numbers."...

bmeski 6y ago
This is why we here in the US call it a free country. It is very different from the democratic freedoms of other countries. We founded this nation because of misuse of government power. You should always be skeptical of government oversight. Our constitution was written by very bright people who understood that mob rule and government overreach are very easy to fall into. Think of how phishing attempts sometimes use your emotions/anxieties against you, “Urgent, this is your boss, I need your email and PW to log in.” The same fear mongering has been used to shut down schools across the US when there is little statistical evidence showing spread occurs in schools. Many other nations know this and kids are still going to school. This is a prime example of when government overreach is entirely misguided and political. Edit: Thank goodness we still have free speech here. I fear many of our freedoms can easily be eradicated by the, “saving just one life,” argument. Edit edit: Also not trying to be too inflammatory but China has all the data in the world and they fudged the numbers they sent out. We already have entirely data driven societies and you can ask Hong Kong how much they wanted it.
- netsharc 6y ago
  Your edit edit basically is what I argued against in my original reply.. "China gathers data, China abuses data, therefore all data gathering is baaaad!". As for the rest of your response, eh, this is reddit-level response, but: standard "American exceptionalism" masturbation. The sooner you figure out you're nothing special, the sooner the world will be a better place.

save_ferris 6y ago

> Having said that there might be some marginal benefit for FDA to have some data for which the FDA should incentivize users by asking them to give consent, offer discounts and promise anonymisation. If the executive branch (which the FDA falls under) is so far beyond reigning in that we have to resort to disabling an important functionality of government instead of improving the check on power (which is where I believe the focus should be), then why would you assume that they're being honest when they promise you that they're anonymizing your data? You're arguing that the executive branch is out of control but you're willing to trust them if they promise to anonymize the data they collect? That makes no sense to me. If you're going to use the "rogue administration" argument, then how exactly does FDA, which falls under the executive branch, not fall into the same rogue behavior category?