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I wonder how the team adding in that extra delay justified it to themselves? I always wonder this with things like the Volkswagen emissions cheating - how do t

I wonder how the team adding in that extra delay justified it to themselves? I always wonder this with things like the Volkswagen emissions cheating - how do those engineers rationalise it?

blacksmith_tb 6y ago
Well, working in ad-tech is pretty much bad from the get-go, this just seems like more of the same to me. To be fair, unlike VW diesels, it's also not directly damaging anyone's health, but it's still a nasty business.
- inetknght 6y ago
  > it's also not directly damaging anyone's health I completely disagree. Have you noticed how much targeted advertising has sold out our world and affected peoples ability to rationally think?
- claudeganon 6y ago
  Advertising has done more damage to people’s mental health and self-image then just about any other industry.
- manigandham 6y ago
  > working in ad-tech is pretty much bad from the get-go No, it's the same as any other industry. A single company or negative behavior doesn't define everyone.
  - engineeringwoke 6y ago
    No, ad tech is well-known as the particularly abusive part of these monopolistic businesses. It's a race to the bottom, and someone has to code them there. It's bad.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  It's common practice in the advertising industry to exploit people's feelings of inadequacy. This is an industry that doesn't think twice about making an emotionally vulnerable teenager feel like a loser if they think it will help them sell some shitty product as the 'solution.' This is directly harming people's health.
  - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
    Yes, I considered that, and I agree that it's an industry that does cause psychological harm to make a buck. But that still seems a little different than causing respiratory illness - maybe not that different, really...
    - bigbubba 6y ago
      With regard to particulate emissions, consider the role advertisers play in the deaths attributable to the tobacco industry. I'd wager more have been killed by tobacco industry advertisers than by VW engineers.
short_sells_poo 6y ago
They justified it by earning very high salaries. Turned around, it is very difficult for a person to see a problem, if their salary depends on not seeing the problem.
- rendall 6y ago
  I have worked in ad tech. Can confirm
- dwd 6y ago
  Not even that: a culture where you are expected to meet your goals, deadlines and performance criteria can lead to shortcuts and ethical breaches when the company is relying on you "making it happen". For an engineer the end justifies the means when it involves putting food on the table and ensuring there's a roof over your families head - whistle-blowing is not an option, and quitting mid-project is never a good look either.
  - watwut 6y ago
    > For an engineer the end justifies the means when it involves putting food on the table and ensuring there's a roof over your families head - whistle-blowing is not an option, and quitting mid-project is never a good look either. Every time I hear this ... no. Google engineers could get a job elsewhere easily. It is not like software engineers would be like miners in dying industry struggling to survive. We are well paid and can get jobs easily. I am not saying that everyone should leave Google. I am saying that if your company demands something unethical from you, rationalizing it through "ensuring there's a roof over your families head" is just lie for most of us.
pmoriarty 6y ago
"I wonder how the team adding in that extra delay justified it to themselves?" A nice fat paycheck will often be enough to quiet a lot of people's doubts. And if it still bothers them, they can make themselves feel better by donating some of the money to charity. Also, people who do things they know are wrong can mollify their consciences by comparing themselves to people who do even worse, and then patting themselves on the back for not being as bad. They think things like, "at least I'm not literally robbing anyone", and the robbers think, "at least I'm not physically hurting anyone", and those that hurt people think "at least I'm not killing anyone", and then killers think, "at least I'm not torturing anyone to death," and the torturers tend to have some excuse too, like doing it for the greater good. Unless you are literally the worst of the worst there'll always be someone worse you could compare yourself to and think that at least you're better than them. There are already some examples of this kind of justification in this very thread.
- fvold 6y ago
  "These are evil, vile people I am torturing to death. In fact, it's debatable if they're even people!" tends to be the justification, and it tends to be based on mental gymnastics surrounding some old book :-/ I see your point, and I agree. "In the end, it's better for the consumer this way, we're just giving the process the tiniest of nudges." has fueled a lot of anti-consumer hogwash over the years, I'm sure.
AgentME 6y ago
The design of it was discussed in https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/3133 https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/3133. It wasn't done nefariously. AMP prioritizes the page content and verified elements first over non-AMP content (including non-AMP ads).
- darepublic 6y ago
  I read this and it was interesting and clarifying. As an aside, I still hate amp though
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  This is interesting and sounds eerily similar to the justifications made by the anti-net-neutrality lobby: "Here at Comcast, we're not penalizing your content, we're just prioritizing traffic from our Valued Partner sites..."
billylindeman 6y ago
I've worked at a startup in the past where the design team requested we put artificial delays / fake progress bars in. I told the design team that 1) Its just bad design / hostile to our users, and 2) that I'd quit before I'd build it for them. It's a hill I'd be happy to die on. I feel like 6/10 engineers wouldn't care to have that fight, let alone risk their job over it. I'm lucky to be in a position that I am even able to. So many are not. Yet another example for the banality of evil.
- switch11 6y ago
  Tip of the hat to you
- ricardo81 6y ago
  I agree, I've heard of artificial delays being introduced because some loading of things was deemed 'too quick'- something about the user expects some delay and anything quicker than that gives the feel that nothing has really happened. I can see the logic in it a wee bit, I'll try find a link to their thinking on it.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    If they have to add something, add an animation.
  - alsetmusic 6y ago
    Artificial delays and user satisfaction (with focus group testing) were discussed in this podcast episode: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/wait-wait-tell-me/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/wait-wait-tell-me/
nl 6y ago
Almost all JS ads have a render delay of ~1 s to avoid page layout issues. In this case they are using the same approach for HTML/JS ads on AMP pages, but if they know it's AMP they don't need to. So I dunno - from an engineering point of view it seems pretty well justified to me.

I wonder how the team adding in that extra delay justified it to themselves? I always wonder this with things like the Volkswagen emissions cheating - how do those engineers rationalise it?

blacksmith_tb 6y ago

Well, working in ad-tech is pretty much bad from the get-go, this just seems like more of the same to me. To be fair, unlike VW diesels, it's also not directly damaging anyone's health, but it's still a nasty business.

inetknght 6y ago
> it's also not directly damaging anyone's health I completely disagree. Have you noticed how much targeted advertising has sold out our world and affected peoples ability to rationally think?
claudeganon 6y ago
Advertising has done more damage to people’s mental health and self-image then just about any other industry.
manigandham 6y ago
> working in ad-tech is pretty much bad from the get-go No, it's the same as any other industry. A single company or negative behavior doesn't define everyone.
- engineeringwoke 6y ago
  No, ad tech is well-known as the particularly abusive part of these monopolistic businesses. It's a race to the bottom, and someone has to code them there. It's bad.
bigbubba 6y ago
It's common practice in the advertising industry to exploit people's feelings of inadequacy. This is an industry that doesn't think twice about making an emotionally vulnerable teenager feel like a loser if they think it will help them sell some shitty product as the 'solution.' This is directly harming people's health.
- blacksmith_tb 6y ago
  Yes, I considered that, and I agree that it's an industry that does cause psychological harm to make a buck. But that still seems a little different than causing respiratory illness - maybe not that different, really...
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    With regard to particulate emissions, consider the role advertisers play in the deaths attributable to the tobacco industry. I'd wager more have been killed by tobacco industry advertisers than by VW engineers.

short_sells_poo 6y ago

They justified it by earning very high salaries. Turned around, it is very difficult for a person to see a problem, if their salary depends on not seeing the problem.

rendall 6y ago
I have worked in ad tech. Can confirm
dwd 6y ago
Not even that: a culture where you are expected to meet your goals, deadlines and performance criteria can lead to shortcuts and ethical breaches when the company is relying on you "making it happen". For an engineer the end justifies the means when it involves putting food on the table and ensuring there's a roof over your families head - whistle-blowing is not an option, and quitting mid-project is never a good look either.
- watwut 6y ago
  > For an engineer the end justifies the means when it involves putting food on the table and ensuring there's a roof over your families head - whistle-blowing is not an option, and quitting mid-project is never a good look either. Every time I hear this ... no. Google engineers could get a job elsewhere easily. It is not like software engineers would be like miners in dying industry struggling to survive. We are well paid and can get jobs easily. I am not saying that everyone should leave Google. I am saying that if your company demands something unethical from you, rationalizing it through "ensuring there's a roof over your families head" is just lie for most of us.

pmoriarty 6y ago

"I wonder how the team adding in that extra delay justified it to themselves?" A nice fat paycheck will often be enough to quiet a lot of people's doubts. And if it still bothers them, they can make themselves feel better by donating some of the money to charity. Also, people who do things they know are wrong can mollify their consciences by comparing themselves to people who do even worse, and then patting themselves on the back for not being as bad. They think things like, "at least I'm not literally robbing anyone", and the robbers think, "at least I'm not physically hurting anyone", and those that hurt people think "at least I'm not killing anyone", and then killers think, "at least I'm not torturing anyone to death," and the torturers tend to have some excuse too, like doing it for the greater good. Unless you are literally the worst of the worst there'll always be someone worse you could compare yourself to and think that at least you're better than them. There are already some examples of this kind of justification in this very thread.

fvold 6y ago
"These are evil, vile people I am torturing to death. In fact, it's debatable if they're even people!" tends to be the justification, and it tends to be based on mental gymnastics surrounding some old book :-/ I see your point, and I agree. "In the end, it's better for the consumer this way, we're just giving the process the tiniest of nudges." has fueled a lot of anti-consumer hogwash over the years, I'm sure.

AgentME 6y ago

The design of it was discussed in https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/3133 https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/3133. It wasn't done nefariously. AMP prioritizes the page content and verified elements first over non-AMP content (including non-AMP ads).

darepublic 6y ago
I read this and it was interesting and clarifying. As an aside, I still hate amp though
ForHackernews 6y ago
This is interesting and sounds eerily similar to the justifications made by the anti-net-neutrality lobby: "Here at Comcast, we're not penalizing your content, we're just prioritizing traffic from our Valued Partner sites..."

billylindeman 6y ago

I've worked at a startup in the past where the design team requested we put artificial delays / fake progress bars in. I told the design team that 1) Its just bad design / hostile to our users, and 2) that I'd quit before I'd build it for them. It's a hill I'd be happy to die on. I feel like 6/10 engineers wouldn't care to have that fight, let alone risk their job over it. I'm lucky to be in a position that I am even able to. So many are not. Yet another example for the banality of evil.

switch11 6y ago
Tip of the hat to you
ricardo81 6y ago
I agree, I've heard of artificial delays being introduced because some loading of things was deemed 'too quick'- something about the user expects some delay and anything quicker than that gives the feel that nothing has really happened. I can see the logic in it a wee bit, I'll try find a link to their thinking on it.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  If they have to add something, add an animation.
- alsetmusic 6y ago
  Artificial delays and user satisfaction (with focus group testing) were discussed in this podcast episode: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/wait-wait-tell-me/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/wait-wait-tell-me/

nl 6y ago

Almost all JS ads have a render delay of ~1 s to avoid page layout issues. In this case they are using the same approach for HTML/JS ads on AMP pages, but if they know it's AMP they don't need to. So I dunno - from an engineering point of view it seems pretty well justified to me.