4 ms·

Well I think it's a matter of "is it ethical to bring into the world a being who is more likely to have a bad life or lots of suffering?" Once the person is her

Well I think it's a matter of "is it ethical to bring into the world a being who is more likely to have a bad life or lots of suffering?" Once the person is here we are of course obligated to treat them with compassion. BTW, I'm not saying this is my view on DS -- I have met many people with DS who seem to have rich or rewarding lives. But I think clearly some people think that way. Plus, I think parents who have a child with DS are headed down a road of having someone that needs a lot of care for the rest of their lives. I can't blame someone for not wanting to take that on.

lqet 6y ago
> "is it ethical to bring into the world ... " That's the complicated part - when does "bring into the world" begin? For the parents (at least that is how we felt), this moment is often much, much closer to conception than to birth.
- ggm 6y ago
  at least that is how we felt Key Words. You plainly understand other people feel differently.
  - lqet 6y ago
    Indeed. I have read somewhere that until the 19th century, that moment was often months after birth. It was common to give the newborn away to a nurse if you could afford it until it had survived the first year, and only then accept it as part of the family. This way, the parents could safe themselves a bit from the excruciating pain of child loss. Edit: This is e.g. mentioned in the German Wikipedia on Pox (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocken#16._bis_19._Jahrhundert https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocken#16._bis_19._Jahrhundert), there is also a citation for it. I have read it several times during the last years, but don't have a better source, sorry.
    - mainstreemm 6y ago
      Could you please provide a citation for this claim? It's fascinating if true, but I wonder which societies did this and what documentation there is for this practice. My understanding was that prior to the 20th century child mortality -- and mothers dying in childbirth -- were both common enough as to be practically mundane, or at least, as mundane as any death ever is.
      - narag 6y ago
        Prior to 20th century? For my grandparents' generation it was common that about a third of their siblings died during their chilhood, mostly before one year old. And I'm not so old ;)
        redis_mlc 6y ago
        I think he wanted a citation for this: > It was common to give the newborn away to a nurse if you could afford it until it had survived the first year I wasn't aware of that practice, although before around 1994 there were all kinds of institutions that don't exist now, which is literally why downtown SF is the way it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation
yostrovs 6y ago
People with Down Syndrome consistently report higher levels of satisfaction with life than the average person. It's just that we look down upon them and it makes us sad. We only care of things from our own point of view. Try to consider their perspective. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/24/people-with-down-syndrome-are-happy-why-are-we-trying-to-eliminate-them/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/0...
- rindalir 6y ago
  As I've said, the people I've met with Down Syndrome seemed to be genuinely happy (and just all-around delightful) people, to the best that I could determine. I've also read that parents and other family members of people with Down Syndrome also report high levels of satisfaction with life. I know what side of the line DS would fall on for me, but I can't make that decision for other people.
- albertgoeswoof 6y ago
  That’s interesting- but do think of the challenge it places on parents. Bringing up a child with Down’s syndrome is extremely tough, and they never really become independent adults.
  - cogman10 6y ago
    That's my main concern about a child with a disability. I don't mind taking care of them for the rest of my life, but who takes care of them after I'm gone? People with down syndrome end up homeless all the time.

lqet 6y ago

> "is it ethical to bring into the world ... " That's the complicated part - when does "bring into the world" begin? For the parents (at least that is how we felt), this moment is often much, much closer to conception than to birth.

ggm 6y ago
at least that is how we felt Key Words. You plainly understand other people feel differently.
- lqet 6y ago
  Indeed. I have read somewhere that until the 19th century, that moment was often months after birth. It was common to give the newborn away to a nurse if you could afford it until it had survived the first year, and only then accept it as part of the family. This way, the parents could safe themselves a bit from the excruciating pain of child loss. Edit: This is e.g. mentioned in the German Wikipedia on Pox (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocken#16._bis_19._Jahrhundert https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocken#16._bis_19._Jahrhundert), there is also a citation for it. I have read it several times during the last years, but don't have a better source, sorry.
  - mainstreemm 6y ago
    Could you please provide a citation for this claim? It's fascinating if true, but I wonder which societies did this and what documentation there is for this practice. My understanding was that prior to the 20th century child mortality -- and mothers dying in childbirth -- were both common enough as to be practically mundane, or at least, as mundane as any death ever is.
    - narag 6y ago
      Prior to 20th century? For my grandparents' generation it was common that about a third of their siblings died during their chilhood, mostly before one year old. And I'm not so old ;)
      - redis_mlc 6y ago
        I think he wanted a citation for this: > It was common to give the newborn away to a nurse if you could afford it until it had survived the first year I wasn't aware of that practice, although before around 1994 there were all kinds of institutions that don't exist now, which is literally why downtown SF is the way it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation

yostrovs 6y ago

People with Down Syndrome consistently report higher levels of satisfaction with life than the average person. It's just that we look down upon them and it makes us sad. We only care of things from our own point of view. Try to consider their perspective. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/24/people-with-down-syndrome-are-happy-why-are-we-trying-to-eliminate-them/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/0...

rindalir 6y ago
As I've said, the people I've met with Down Syndrome seemed to be genuinely happy (and just all-around delightful) people, to the best that I could determine. I've also read that parents and other family members of people with Down Syndrome also report high levels of satisfaction with life. I know what side of the line DS would fall on for me, but I can't make that decision for other people.
albertgoeswoof 6y ago
That’s interesting- but do think of the challenge it places on parents. Bringing up a child with Down’s syndrome is extremely tough, and they never really become independent adults.
- cogman10 6y ago
  That's my main concern about a child with a disability. I don't mind taking care of them for the rest of my life, but who takes care of them after I'm gone? People with down syndrome end up homeless all the time.