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Cough cough masks. Took my parents a bit to 180 on that one. I sent them N95s in late Feb and they still don't really wear them (though at least they wear bas

Cough cough masks. Took my parents a bit to 180 on that one. I sent them N95s in late Feb and they still don't really wear them (though at least they wear basic fabric masks). At first they told me 'those don't prevent covid - i heard might make it worse.' I tried to explain what n95 technically meant to no avail.

unnouinceput 6y ago
* ( cough masks cough )
mancerayder 6y ago
Yes. I think our public authorities - the ones we're told are scientific geniuses (the WHO, CDC) that we should all dutifully follow - said not to wear a mask, at least it was interpreted like that (what they actually said was, we don't recommend masks for the public). As recently as two months ago I argued with a doctor (not my doctor, a person I met) that these guidelines were off, poor messaging and an outright mistake given the trust fallout. I was told, no no, when I was getting my license, they made us do specialized fitting and testing and even put down some fit information on a card (she showed me a card with details). I was confused, since N95s come in two sizes, regular and "small." This is an example of an institutional/acedemic ivory tower needing a reality check if I ever saw one. How many people died because many people heard that masks were useless and even harmful? Nope, not red tie people or flat earthers, or whatever conspiratorialists du jour that enjoy mainstream press coverage; here, mainstream institutions are responsible for this. I wore a mask the first week of March because it was common sense to wear a mask the first week of March. It took until JUNE for the WHO to change its tune (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200608/who-changes-stance-says-public-should-wear-masks https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200608/who-changes-stance-...).
- drspacemonkey 6y ago
  There was a Netflix documentary series on pandemic planning (in the works before COVID, but the timing was fortuitous). In it, there was a CDC/WHO expert who traveled around to various health authorities/districts/regions and trained them on how to deal with the public regarding a pandemic. This expert did the professional version of a facepalm when she recounted the times when these health experts failed in their drills. She made it clear that the public will look to them as experts, so be clear, be informative, tell the truth, give actionable steps, etc. Because if these experts _don't_ do these things, the public will look elsewhere. And that "elsewhere" will likely be random yahoos on the internet. Doctors saying "wear a mask" will have greater overall benefits, even if people follow that advice BADLY.
- safog 6y ago
  My other problem with N95 fitting argument (as I've seen it made during the early days of the pandemic) is that there is a level that is "good enough" for most people. Yes, if you want absolute certainty in a highly infectious environment like the hospital, when you're doing bronchoscopies or taking care of COVID patients, you'd want to get the fit absolutely perfect (especially if it takes key resources like Nurses / docs out of commission for several weeks). But if you're just worried about everyday scenarios like sharing an elevator in my apartment building or going to a grocery store where people still seem to turn up with out masks (or worse, pretend bandanas are masks) or get on public transit, then getting some protection is good enough.
- mortehu 6y ago
  I think a major problem is that "we don't recommend masks" too easily gets interpreted as "we recommend no masks", and we need new clear language to say the former (no position on masks) with no risk of misinterpretation (position against masks). Edit: I misremembered the original advice. CDC specifically said masks were unnecessary. Obviously they didn't have the evidence to make that kind of assertion.
  - boogies 6y ago
    IDK about the WHO & CDC, but “the leading spokesperson on matters of public health in the federal government of the United States” (according to Wikipedia) did not have “no position on masks”. I’d quote him here, but his position was emphatic enough to technically break HN’s guidelines: https://nitter.net/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://nitter.net/Surgeon_General/status/123372578528393216...
    - mortehu 6y ago
      You are right. CDC said in March "You do not need to wear a facemask unless you are caring for someone who is sick (and they are not able to wear a facemask)".
    - mancerayder 6y ago
      It's fashionable to criticize (correctly) the current administration but let's not absolve stuff-that-isn't-that-administration like the WHO https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-recommendation-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-r... (reversed in June) The CDC has more an ambiguous relationship but they came out against masks in Feb and reversed course somewhat in April. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/22/mask-wearing_guidance_a_timeline_of_slow-to-shift_messaging_143264.html# https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/22/mask-w...! I would take a step back from partisan politics for this issue, something people have a very tough time with even in the best of times. We should criticize all institutions when they're wrong on questions of public health.
      - 6y ago
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  > what they actually said was, we don't recommend masks for the public There is no reasonable explanation except that the misleading statements were intentional - there's no way they didn't notice how their statements were received. And infamously the US Surgeon General made a pretty clear statement with his "Don't buy masks" tweet. > I was confused, since N95s come in two sizes, regular and "small." As I understand it, if neither passes the fit test, you need a different brand or can't do work that requires one.
  - mancerayder 6y ago
    I think they were worried about a run on the masks that would jeopardize civil workers and medical personnel. But instead of phrasing it remotely like that, or a different tactic, they chose to lie. That's my explanation. Maybe a recording will leak or a document and we'll find out in a few decades.
    - rimliu 6y ago
      Maybe they genuinely did believe that masks do not work. If the believe is that COVID spreads simliar to the flu that assumption makes sense. See https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility The problem is that it is very hard to assess the real effect of masks, because they are always a part of a broader range of measures. The infamous Danish study is rather inconclusive and there are no other trying to measure the direct effect.
- godelski 6y ago
  I've argued with both a doctor and an aerospace engineer (her expertise was specifically in fluid flow) about how valves on masks significantly reduce their effects in transmission reduction. It amazed me how people who should be experts fought against basic information that is also easy to verify and should also be within their domain expertise For what it's worth I have a degree in physics and used to work in rocketry and sim science so I'm not just some naive person arguing with a domain expert. What I learned from this is that there's a lot going on besides facts. Social status and signaling matters a lot and the reason they were upset is because I upset that, even though it was in private. When we politicize and socialize things it's a double edged sword. It can get people to adopt strategies but can also add binders.

unnouinceput 6y ago

* ( cough masks cough )

mancerayder 6y ago

Yes. I think our public authorities - the ones we're told are scientific geniuses (the WHO, CDC) that we should all dutifully follow - said not to wear a mask, at least it was interpreted like that (what they actually said was, we don't recommend masks for the public). As recently as two months ago I argued with a doctor (not my doctor, a person I met) that these guidelines were off, poor messaging and an outright mistake given the trust fallout. I was told, no no, when I was getting my license, they made us do specialized fitting and testing and even put down some fit information on a card (she showed me a card with details). I was confused, since N95s come in two sizes, regular and "small." This is an example of an institutional/acedemic ivory tower needing a reality check if I ever saw one. How many people died because many people heard that masks were useless and even harmful? Nope, not red tie people or flat earthers, or whatever conspiratorialists du jour that enjoy mainstream press coverage; here, mainstream institutions are responsible for this. I wore a mask the first week of March because it was common sense to wear a mask the first week of March. It took until JUNE for the WHO to change its tune (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200608/who-changes-stance-says-public-should-wear-masks https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200608/who-changes-stance-...).

drspacemonkey 6y ago
There was a Netflix documentary series on pandemic planning (in the works before COVID, but the timing was fortuitous). In it, there was a CDC/WHO expert who traveled around to various health authorities/districts/regions and trained them on how to deal with the public regarding a pandemic. This expert did the professional version of a facepalm when she recounted the times when these health experts failed in their drills. She made it clear that the public will look to them as experts, so be clear, be informative, tell the truth, give actionable steps, etc. Because if these experts _don't_ do these things, the public will look elsewhere. And that "elsewhere" will likely be random yahoos on the internet. Doctors saying "wear a mask" will have greater overall benefits, even if people follow that advice BADLY.
safog 6y ago
My other problem with N95 fitting argument (as I've seen it made during the early days of the pandemic) is that there is a level that is "good enough" for most people. Yes, if you want absolute certainty in a highly infectious environment like the hospital, when you're doing bronchoscopies or taking care of COVID patients, you'd want to get the fit absolutely perfect (especially if it takes key resources like Nurses / docs out of commission for several weeks). But if you're just worried about everyday scenarios like sharing an elevator in my apartment building or going to a grocery store where people still seem to turn up with out masks (or worse, pretend bandanas are masks) or get on public transit, then getting some protection is good enough.
mortehu 6y ago
I think a major problem is that "we don't recommend masks" too easily gets interpreted as "we recommend no masks", and we need new clear language to say the former (no position on masks) with no risk of misinterpretation (position against masks). Edit: I misremembered the original advice. CDC specifically said masks were unnecessary. Obviously they didn't have the evidence to make that kind of assertion.
- boogies 6y ago
  IDK about the WHO & CDC, but “the leading spokesperson on matters of public health in the federal government of the United States” (according to Wikipedia) did not have “no position on masks”. I’d quote him here, but his position was emphatic enough to technically break HN’s guidelines: https://nitter.net/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://nitter.net/Surgeon_General/status/123372578528393216...
  - mortehu 6y ago
    You are right. CDC said in March "You do not need to wear a facemask unless you are caring for someone who is sick (and they are not able to wear a facemask)".
  - mancerayder 6y ago
    It's fashionable to criticize (correctly) the current administration but let's not absolve stuff-that-isn't-that-administration like the WHO https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-recommendation-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-r... (reversed in June) The CDC has more an ambiguous relationship but they came out against masks in Feb and reversed course somewhat in April. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/22/mask-wearing_guidance_a_timeline_of_slow-to-shift_messaging_143264.html# https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/22/mask-w...! I would take a step back from partisan politics for this issue, something people have a very tough time with even in the best of times. We should criticize all institutions when they're wrong on questions of public health.
    - 6y ago
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
> what they actually said was, we don't recommend masks for the public There is no reasonable explanation except that the misleading statements were intentional - there's no way they didn't notice how their statements were received. And infamously the US Surgeon General made a pretty clear statement with his "Don't buy masks" tweet. > I was confused, since N95s come in two sizes, regular and "small." As I understand it, if neither passes the fit test, you need a different brand or can't do work that requires one.
- mancerayder 6y ago
  I think they were worried about a run on the masks that would jeopardize civil workers and medical personnel. But instead of phrasing it remotely like that, or a different tactic, they chose to lie. That's my explanation. Maybe a recording will leak or a document and we'll find out in a few decades.
  - rimliu 6y ago
    Maybe they genuinely did believe that masks do not work. If the believe is that COVID spreads simliar to the flu that assumption makes sense. See https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility The problem is that it is very hard to assess the real effect of masks, because they are always a part of a broader range of measures. The infamous Danish study is rather inconclusive and there are no other trying to measure the direct effect.
godelski 6y ago
I've argued with both a doctor and an aerospace engineer (her expertise was specifically in fluid flow) about how valves on masks significantly reduce their effects in transmission reduction. It amazed me how people who should be experts fought against basic information that is also easy to verify and should also be within their domain expertise For what it's worth I have a degree in physics and used to work in rocketry and sim science so I'm not just some naive person arguing with a domain expert. What I learned from this is that there's a lot going on besides facts. Social status and signaling matters a lot and the reason they were upset is because I upset that, even though it was in private. When we politicize and socialize things it's a double edged sword. It can get people to adopt strategies but can also add binders.