8 ms·

Honestly, if COVID has taught us anything, it's that people are on average should be treated as children, because it's pretty clear they aren't capable of ratio

Honestly, if COVID has taught us anything, it's that people are on average should be treated as children, because it's pretty clear they aren't capable of rational decision making.

rudedogg 6y ago
The biggest problem is a lack of trust for our government and institutions. I don’t see how lying will do anything to help that. Whoever decided lying to the public about masks to make sure health care workers had PPE should be prosecuted IMO.
- pas 6y ago
  Children shouldn't be lied to either. Plus as far as I'm aware there was no lying, it was a very wishy-washy diversion, woes about PPE shortage due to China shut down, and 5D chessing about trying to not worsen the shortage instead of giving a simple and clear answer, that "yes, they unquestionably help [healthcare workers use them for a reason!], but we'll be stockpiling every shipment for later".
seneca 6y ago
Funny, I thought it taught us that trust in institutions has almost completely disappeared. They've squandered it for years, and now they're bewildered that people don't trust them when they cry "wolf" anymore. This is far from a good thing, but I believe you've got the cause, or at least blame, mostly wrong.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  Interestingly, right at the beginning of the crisis trust in the CDC was really high. Then, soon after, when it was revealed that the HHS and its minions had lied to people, trust plunged. Interesting note? Right at the beginning of the crisis Republicans trusted the CDC more than Dems. People don't like being lied to "for their own good" or whatever. This is the Red Cross Doughnut moment. It's over for trust in public health institutions.
GoodJokes 6y ago
Democrats treating the rural and working classes as feeble children is exactly why those people don't vote for them.
downandout 6y ago
This thing spreads whether there is “rational decision making” or not. In Nevada we have had a mask mandate since the summer, and our numbers are worse than most states, even those that are far less restrictive. When I go out in public, I see near-100% compliance with the mandate, so “rational decision making” isn’t the issue. Perhaps it’s that masks, unless combined with highly impractical protocols that nobody would follow even if imposed (not touching/using their cell phone after touching other things, wearing disposable gloves, etc), simply aren’t that effective.
- gpapilion 6y ago
  I think it’s masks without social distancing makes the mask less effective. Unfortunately early on it was viewed as masks or social distance, with both competing for the top spot in the prevention hierarchy. The truth is masks help, but no where near as much as social distancing. I also think this was a misfire of harm reduction vs prevention. Stay home, and if you have to go out wear a mask was probably the right messaging. Along with masks are not fool proof and you can still get sick, so really minimize interactions.
- mancerayder 6y ago
  Most of the spread are private gatherings of family and friends and in places where people neither wear a mask nor socially distance. I think a mask is meaningless walking outside on the sidewalk; if virus particles survive past six feet and through wind then we have bigger problems ; no, the mask mandate makes sense in stores, workplace hallways and bathrooms, hair salons and stuff like that. It's complex to tell people to wear a mask in specific situations so the authorities say to wear it all the time, which feels oppressive. It's complex to tell people not to hoard things so we lied and told the public masks weren't recommended until June. Now the gloves thing is a mystery to me. Do people not have control over their hands? The virus doesn't enter the hands, it enters the face-holes, but the hands have to be close to the face-holes to enter, where they bind to receptors in the airways. The virus-facehole transit route exists even if you wear gloves. A few months back I saw someone sitting outside, on a park bench, mask on chin while they ate a sandwich -- with their gloves. Yeah, it can be the case that people are dumb-dumbs AND our institutions are awful at messaging strategy.
mancerayder 6y ago
If by people you mean academic and institutional voices in power, then I fully agree. I'm only repeating my comment above for effect, here: the WHO and CDC said that masks were not recommended for the general public, and did more harm than good, and this only changed in June. So from here, the issue is that common sense was shot down in favor of credentialism. I wore a mask starting in March because it was common sense, and I was given scientific arguments for not wearing them. Because, science. That I observed medical professionals wearing them, and east Asian citizens doing this for decades already, was irrelevant in the face of credentialed spokespeople from large organizations arguing that up was down and down was up. So then the idea that people are children and should be treated as such becomes very elitist if taken like this.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  You and me both, brother. Everyone I knew in my friend groups had their masks up. N95s and P100s we all had for California wildfire season. It was the perfect use of knowledge over argument from authority: we were all masked up and we knew we were right. Other things people said: * N95s have a short shelf-life. Complete bullshit. The real first POF is the elasticated band. If that's fine, your fit will probably be fine. We knew this wasn't true so my 10 year old masks were still legit. * N95s require a lot of training for fit. The fit test is trivial to do. We knew this but lots of people on HN and authorities claimed this wasn't the case. * N95s cannot be reused. This was highly likely to be nonsense. The virus doesn't survive on surfaces for very long and that was the high probability event. After all, viruses rarely mutate so that they're terrible in all ways. i.e. this virus likely behaves like other coronaviruses except for a few variations. And of course those with our half-mask respirators printed our exhale valves and placed our P100s in them and were full protected. There was a lot of misinformation going around by people who just didn't know very much and were very eager to sound authoritative. They were all about "sources" and "citations" that are just parrot views (i.e. single primary source, many secondary sources giving the impression of consensus). People made fun of the tech industry for how they handled it, too. Techies (being coddled millennial snowflakes) shut down before any government, stopped business flights to/from China, and started working from home and wearing masks earlier. Honestly, my biggest mistake was that I was one of the few in my group of friends who believed the US had competent bureaucrats and so I stayed in the market while my friends sold ahead of the crash. Welp.
centimeter 6y ago
This is true, but probably in exactly the opposite sense of what you mean.
0x262d 6y ago
ah man. good luck having long-term political success with this attitude. this is the sort of insanely condescending attitude that is partially responsible for the rise of right wing demagoguery.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
What it has taught me is a) to not trust the government and b) to look out for your own interests first.
tomjen3 6y ago
My mum loves children and has raised me and my brother well and has been a part of the lives of countless children. You know what she has never done that I can remember? Belittled them, talked down to them or not considered that they were _humans_ with their own goals and values. I can't say that she never lied to us (Santa Claus etc) and of course sometimes she would force us to got to bed or do homework or whatever, but it seems obvious that she genuinely cared at all times and she was happy when you were able to do something new or achieved something. The vibe I have seen from those in power and their supporters have been one of arrogance and utter contempt bordering on hatred for the masses that won't blindly obey them. They have no interest in protecting the population, they are just there for the power. I think Fauci did care, a few others probably did too, but the general tone on twitter, reddit and the media was one of contempt. I vaguely follow a (real) conservative on twitter, and she was also pretty arrogant but obviously from the other side, so this is a bipartisan issue, I think.

Honestly, if COVID has taught us anything, it's that people are on average should be treated as children, because it's pretty clear they aren't capable of rational decision making.

rudedogg 6y ago

The biggest problem is a lack of trust for our government and institutions. I don’t see how lying will do anything to help that. Whoever decided lying to the public about masks to make sure health care workers had PPE should be prosecuted IMO.

pas 6y ago
Children shouldn't be lied to either. Plus as far as I'm aware there was no lying, it was a very wishy-washy diversion, woes about PPE shortage due to China shut down, and 5D chessing about trying to not worsen the shortage instead of giving a simple and clear answer, that "yes, they unquestionably help [healthcare workers use them for a reason!], but we'll be stockpiling every shipment for later".

seneca 6y ago

Funny, I thought it taught us that trust in institutions has almost completely disappeared. They've squandered it for years, and now they're bewildered that people don't trust them when they cry "wolf" anymore. This is far from a good thing, but I believe you've got the cause, or at least blame, mostly wrong.

renewiltord 6y ago
Interestingly, right at the beginning of the crisis trust in the CDC was really high. Then, soon after, when it was revealed that the HHS and its minions had lied to people, trust plunged. Interesting note? Right at the beginning of the crisis Republicans trusted the CDC more than Dems. People don't like being lied to "for their own good" or whatever. This is the Red Cross Doughnut moment. It's over for trust in public health institutions.

GoodJokes 6y ago

Democrats treating the rural and working classes as feeble children is exactly why those people don't vote for them.

downandout 6y ago

This thing spreads whether there is “rational decision making” or not. In Nevada we have had a mask mandate since the summer, and our numbers are worse than most states, even those that are far less restrictive. When I go out in public, I see near-100% compliance with the mandate, so “rational decision making” isn’t the issue. Perhaps it’s that masks, unless combined with highly impractical protocols that nobody would follow even if imposed (not touching/using their cell phone after touching other things, wearing disposable gloves, etc), simply aren’t that effective.

gpapilion 6y ago
I think it’s masks without social distancing makes the mask less effective. Unfortunately early on it was viewed as masks or social distance, with both competing for the top spot in the prevention hierarchy. The truth is masks help, but no where near as much as social distancing. I also think this was a misfire of harm reduction vs prevention. Stay home, and if you have to go out wear a mask was probably the right messaging. Along with masks are not fool proof and you can still get sick, so really minimize interactions.
mancerayder 6y ago
Most of the spread are private gatherings of family and friends and in places where people neither wear a mask nor socially distance. I think a mask is meaningless walking outside on the sidewalk; if virus particles survive past six feet and through wind then we have bigger problems ; no, the mask mandate makes sense in stores, workplace hallways and bathrooms, hair salons and stuff like that. It's complex to tell people to wear a mask in specific situations so the authorities say to wear it all the time, which feels oppressive. It's complex to tell people not to hoard things so we lied and told the public masks weren't recommended until June. Now the gloves thing is a mystery to me. Do people not have control over their hands? The virus doesn't enter the hands, it enters the face-holes, but the hands have to be close to the face-holes to enter, where they bind to receptors in the airways. The virus-facehole transit route exists even if you wear gloves. A few months back I saw someone sitting outside, on a park bench, mask on chin while they ate a sandwich -- with their gloves. Yeah, it can be the case that people are dumb-dumbs AND our institutions are awful at messaging strategy.

mancerayder 6y ago

If by people you mean academic and institutional voices in power, then I fully agree. I'm only repeating my comment above for effect, here: the WHO and CDC said that masks were not recommended for the general public, and did more harm than good, and this only changed in June. So from here, the issue is that common sense was shot down in favor of credentialism. I wore a mask starting in March because it was common sense, and I was given scientific arguments for not wearing them. Because, science. That I observed medical professionals wearing them, and east Asian citizens doing this for decades already, was irrelevant in the face of credentialed spokespeople from large organizations arguing that up was down and down was up. So then the idea that people are children and should be treated as such becomes very elitist if taken like this.

renewiltord 6y ago
You and me both, brother. Everyone I knew in my friend groups had their masks up. N95s and P100s we all had for California wildfire season. It was the perfect use of knowledge over argument from authority: we were all masked up and we knew we were right. Other things people said: * N95s have a short shelf-life. Complete bullshit. The real first POF is the elasticated band. If that's fine, your fit will probably be fine. We knew this wasn't true so my 10 year old masks were still legit. * N95s require a lot of training for fit. The fit test is trivial to do. We knew this but lots of people on HN and authorities claimed this wasn't the case. * N95s cannot be reused. This was highly likely to be nonsense. The virus doesn't survive on surfaces for very long and that was the high probability event. After all, viruses rarely mutate so that they're terrible in all ways. i.e. this virus likely behaves like other coronaviruses except for a few variations. And of course those with our half-mask respirators printed our exhale valves and placed our P100s in them and were full protected. There was a lot of misinformation going around by people who just didn't know very much and were very eager to sound authoritative. They were all about "sources" and "citations" that are just parrot views (i.e. single primary source, many secondary sources giving the impression of consensus). People made fun of the tech industry for how they handled it, too. Techies (being coddled millennial snowflakes) shut down before any government, stopped business flights to/from China, and started working from home and wearing masks earlier. Honestly, my biggest mistake was that I was one of the few in my group of friends who believed the US had competent bureaucrats and so I stayed in the market while my friends sold ahead of the crash. Welp.

centimeter 6y ago

This is true, but probably in exactly the opposite sense of what you mean.

0x262d 6y ago

ah man. good luck having long-term political success with this attitude. this is the sort of insanely condescending attitude that is partially responsible for the rise of right wing demagoguery.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

What it has taught me is a) to not trust the government and b) to look out for your own interests first.

tomjen3 6y ago

My mum loves children and has raised me and my brother well and has been a part of the lives of countless children. You know what she has never done that I can remember? Belittled them, talked down to them or not considered that they were _humans_ with their own goals and values. I can't say that she never lied to us (Santa Claus etc) and of course sometimes she would force us to got to bed or do homework or whatever, but it seems obvious that she genuinely cared at all times and she was happy when you were able to do something new or achieved something. The vibe I have seen from those in power and their supporters have been one of arrogance and utter contempt bordering on hatred for the masses that won't blindly obey them. They have no interest in protecting the population, they are just there for the power. I think Fauci did care, a few others probably did too, but the general tone on twitter, reddit and the media was one of contempt. I vaguely follow a (real) conservative on twitter, and she was also pretty arrogant but obviously from the other side, so this is a bipartisan issue, I think.