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> and in 30 years, I've hardly used any of it. Isn't that similar to people saying "I've never used trig in 30 years"? Isn't the point to train your brain to t

> and in 30 years, I've hardly used any of it. Isn't that similar to people saying "I've never used trig in 30 years"? Isn't the point to train your brain to think in a certain way, more so than actually needing sines and cosines? For computer science specifically, the goal is to teach you to think in terms of loops, conditionals, recursion and so on. It's to train the muscle more so than memorize specific algorithms or data structures.

sl1ck731 6y ago
I think the issue is the filter is based on the specific algorithms and not that problem solving ability. There seems to be more emphasis on "the candidate knew to use bubble sort" or something stupid like that instead of "I observed this candidate reason through the problem and I don't really care that they didn't know a canned algorithm".
- carlmr 6y ago
  I think a big point people miss is that you need intuition which algorithm fits where. You don't need the details of how it works, but if you have a good idea how it works you usually have a better intuition. It's a bad proxy, but better than no proxy in my opinion.
- ehsankia 6y ago
  No, that's what you assume they are looking at. You're assuming they only look at whether you properly memorized bubble sort, but in reality good interviewers don't care if you don't even finish the problem or find the answer, they are looking at how you approach the problem and your problem solving skills. You often need strange problems to really get to see people's problem solving, which is why they're often not things you see in real life, but again, the goal isn't to see if people know how to do the strange thing, it's to see how they approach a novel problem from scratch. Aka problem solving skills.
cole-k 6y ago
I'm still new to the industry, but my CS education (yours may differ) was quite theory-heavy. Perhaps the knowledge of data structures and algorithms can be useful for people who need to design whole architectures and systems, but I think the folks who are fixing bugs, tweaking the UI, or adding small features would benefit more from Code Complete than an Algorithms book.
- mcguire 6y ago
  Note that you may find your career limited to fixing (simple!) bugs, tweaking UIs, and adding small features.
  - google234123 6y ago
    That;s a sad career.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      It's a career path that maximizes people helped rather than personal intellectual enjoyment.
      - giantDinosaur 6y ago
        I've done that kind of thing. It did not help many people, and I came to despise everything about my life. Give me some intellectual enjoyment and I'll be much more motivated to help people.
      - google234123 6y ago
        If you give a good person this job they will leave.
vsareto 6y ago
> Isn't the point to train your brain to think in a certain way You might get that through other methods besides trig, meaning trig isn't strictly necessary -- it's just one option among potentially many. The hard part is proving efficacy and efficiency of each option. CompSci interview questions go way beyond loops, conditionals and recursion though, such that if you don't already know some secret sauces, it's unlikely to get the best case solution that the interviewer wants. The other thing throwing this off is interviews are looking for different grades of solutions or maybe just looking at your problem solving/communication skills, e.g. you can fail to find the best known solution but still get a job because of your reasoning. So in this way, the algorithms & data structures interviews can sometimes be used to test knowledge, or test problem solving ability, or both. The interview stopped being a test of "if you can do this job" and instead seeks to find a correlation backed up by some research that says "people that prepare, study, and do well at this interview also do well at this company". Similar research meant that they needed to stop asking brain teaser questions because it wasn't a good indicator of success.
smithza 6y ago
An interviewer proposes this scenario: There is a school bus full of ping pong balls, all the way to the ceiling, filled from back to front. You are asked to estimate the number of ping pong balls while explaining your line of thinking. Questions are welcome--and answered if on the fact sheet. Explaining your abstract, critical thinking process seems much more valuable. HR screens someone for having the degree, assume they are familiar with all the facts (they can use Stack Overflow when they get in). Just learn how they think and how they communicate.
- varjag 6y ago
  HR is unqualified labor attempting to do screening for qualified one, and they tired using tests which they themselves can comprehend as proxies for intelligence. (In past tense because this "Microsoft interview" style quiz was dropped by Microsoft themselves long ago)
CalChris 6y ago
I learned trig before I learned to program and the symbolic dexterity from trig was useful. I think kidz today will learn to program before they learn trig. I don't really have a point here.
- hn_asker 6y ago
  programming and trig can be elegant. I think interviewers sometimes look for elegance. They want to believe they are hiring someone smarter than them. Elegance is one feature they look for.
oscargrouch 6y ago
The screening is not optimized to find the best candidates, its just an arbitrary filter that will in the long term let some people that would be fundamental to the survival of the company out of it. Sometimes its good to accept that the uncertain things are uncertain. If i were them, i would find and train good "screeners", people with talent to spot talent and just let them do the job. Sometimes they will only have a hunch, giving their observations of things that escape most people of a particular candidate, and even without much to show of, they might be right. Later the top screener's would help the new ones to be better at their job, teaching their tricks. This is very subjective and personalized, and even if there might be some objective ways to train the screener's better, i think its just nuts trying to use objective tests to define a good hire. I bet with you that there are a lot of "human gold" out there that would only be detectable only when its too late for the company.

sl1ck731 6y ago

I think the issue is the filter is based on the specific algorithms and not that problem solving ability. There seems to be more emphasis on "the candidate knew to use bubble sort" or something stupid like that instead of "I observed this candidate reason through the problem and I don't really care that they didn't know a canned algorithm".

carlmr 6y ago
I think a big point people miss is that you need intuition which algorithm fits where. You don't need the details of how it works, but if you have a good idea how it works you usually have a better intuition. It's a bad proxy, but better than no proxy in my opinion.
ehsankia 6y ago
No, that's what you assume they are looking at. You're assuming they only look at whether you properly memorized bubble sort, but in reality good interviewers don't care if you don't even finish the problem or find the answer, they are looking at how you approach the problem and your problem solving skills. You often need strange problems to really get to see people's problem solving, which is why they're often not things you see in real life, but again, the goal isn't to see if people know how to do the strange thing, it's to see how they approach a novel problem from scratch. Aka problem solving skills.

cole-k 6y ago

I'm still new to the industry, but my CS education (yours may differ) was quite theory-heavy. Perhaps the knowledge of data structures and algorithms can be useful for people who need to design whole architectures and systems, but I think the folks who are fixing bugs, tweaking the UI, or adding small features would benefit more from Code Complete than an Algorithms book.

mcguire 6y ago
Note that you may find your career limited to fixing (simple!) bugs, tweaking UIs, and adding small features.
- google234123 6y ago
  That;s a sad career.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    It's a career path that maximizes people helped rather than personal intellectual enjoyment.
    - giantDinosaur 6y ago
      I've done that kind of thing. It did not help many people, and I came to despise everything about my life. Give me some intellectual enjoyment and I'll be much more motivated to help people.
    - google234123 6y ago
      If you give a good person this job they will leave.

vsareto 6y ago

> Isn't the point to train your brain to think in a certain way You might get that through other methods besides trig, meaning trig isn't strictly necessary -- it's just one option among potentially many. The hard part is proving efficacy and efficiency of each option. CompSci interview questions go way beyond loops, conditionals and recursion though, such that if you don't already know some secret sauces, it's unlikely to get the best case solution that the interviewer wants. The other thing throwing this off is interviews are looking for different grades of solutions or maybe just looking at your problem solving/communication skills, e.g. you can fail to find the best known solution but still get a job because of your reasoning. So in this way, the algorithms & data structures interviews can sometimes be used to test knowledge, or test problem solving ability, or both. The interview stopped being a test of "if you can do this job" and instead seeks to find a correlation backed up by some research that says "people that prepare, study, and do well at this interview also do well at this company". Similar research meant that they needed to stop asking brain teaser questions because it wasn't a good indicator of success.

smithza 6y ago

An interviewer proposes this scenario: There is a school bus full of ping pong balls, all the way to the ceiling, filled from back to front. You are asked to estimate the number of ping pong balls while explaining your line of thinking. Questions are welcome--and answered if on the fact sheet. Explaining your abstract, critical thinking process seems much more valuable. HR screens someone for having the degree, assume they are familiar with all the facts (they can use Stack Overflow when they get in). Just learn how they think and how they communicate.

varjag 6y ago
HR is unqualified labor attempting to do screening for qualified one, and they tired using tests which they themselves can comprehend as proxies for intelligence. (In past tense because this "Microsoft interview" style quiz was dropped by Microsoft themselves long ago)

CalChris 6y ago

I learned trig before I learned to program and the symbolic dexterity from trig was useful. I think kidz today will learn to program before they learn trig. I don't really have a point here.

hn_asker 6y ago
programming and trig can be elegant. I think interviewers sometimes look for elegance. They want to believe they are hiring someone smarter than them. Elegance is one feature they look for.

oscargrouch 6y ago

The screening is not optimized to find the best candidates, its just an arbitrary filter that will in the long term let some people that would be fundamental to the survival of the company out of it. Sometimes its good to accept that the uncertain things are uncertain. If i were them, i would find and train good "screeners", people with talent to spot talent and just let them do the job. Sometimes they will only have a hunch, giving their observations of things that escape most people of a particular candidate, and even without much to show of, they might be right. Later the top screener's would help the new ones to be better at their job, teaching their tricks. This is very subjective and personalized, and even if there might be some objective ways to train the screener's better, i think its just nuts trying to use objective tests to define a good hire. I bet with you that there are a lot of "human gold" out there that would only be detectable only when its too late for the company.