6 ms·

What do you mean by layer of trust? Bitcoin is definitely not "trustless" its trust minimized for sure. Lightning also minimizes trust in a very similar way. As

What do you mean by layer of trust? Bitcoin is definitely not "trustless" its trust minimized for sure. Lightning also minimizes trust in a very similar way. As a user you don't have to make any more assumptions when using lightning than you do already using the bitcoin base layer.

nwah1 6y ago
With bitcoin you can send funds peer to peer. No trusted intermediaries. Routing through a network of exchanges is more like routing through SWIFT or ACH.
- varajelle 6y ago
  There are no trusted intermediary in lightning. If an intermediary is not behaving, the worst that can happen is that your found are blocked for a small amount of time.
  - nwah1 6y ago
    https://themoneymongers.com/lightning-network-watchtowers/ https://themoneymongers.com/lightning-network-watchtowers/
    - varajelle 6y ago
      1) You don't need trust the watch tower, they can't steel your money. 2) you can host a watch tower yourself on your server.
      - nwah1 6y ago
        If a payment channel is still open, then the blockchain hasn't confirmed anything yet, the only speedup is to reduce roundtrips to the blockchain in the case of a series of transactions. So you are still limited by the speed of the blockchain, unless you decide to trust parties in the Lightning Network.
        nwah1 6y ago
        Onion routing also requires trust that there is no collusion between nodes
        varajelle 6y ago
        You seem to dislike lightning network, but the reason given are not accurate. What would happen if there was collusion between nodes? And while it is true that you are still limited by the Blockchain speed if the nodes don't cooperate, all the incentives are made so they do cooperate and that transactions happen near instantly.
        nwah1 6y ago
        Incentives in the existing ACH and SWIFT systems are such that transactions are fast and accurate. But businesses have to follow the law. If a regulation were imposed, people would feel a need to comply. If they said to block transactions from Iran, on penalty of imprisonment, then they would do so. Etc. Avoiding all of that was the exact motivation for bitcoin. Adding all of the features and drawbacks of existing systems into bitcoin would undermine bitcoin's reason for existence. Centralization at every layer of bitcoin has been the rule. Mining, exchanges, etc. Their dominance is so complete that if only a few of the primary exchanges were to blacklist an individual, they would have a very difficult time. In the same way that Mastercard and VISA banning PornHub is a major harm to that website. Censorship-resistance is thus out the window, and there really isn't that many benefits left for bitcoin after that.
- itsdsmurrell 6y ago
  For a large fee and with a lot of uncertainty on if it will make it into a block. Try the fork of Bitcoin that still operates like Bitcoin used to up until 2016: Bitcoin Cash.
  - three_seagrass 6y ago
    Bitcoin cash is just another alt coin at this point. Transactions have been dwindling and it hasn't even had a reason to flex it's larger block size yet (which is why it was created).
    - itsdsmurrell 6y ago
      Yes, it's a pity people are so easily manipulated.

nwah1 6y ago

With bitcoin you can send funds peer to peer. No trusted intermediaries. Routing through a network of exchanges is more like routing through SWIFT or ACH.

varajelle 6y ago
There are no trusted intermediary in lightning. If an intermediary is not behaving, the worst that can happen is that your found are blocked for a small amount of time.
- nwah1 6y ago
  https://themoneymongers.com/lightning-network-watchtowers/ https://themoneymongers.com/lightning-network-watchtowers/
  - varajelle 6y ago
    1) You don't need trust the watch tower, they can't steel your money. 2) you can host a watch tower yourself on your server.
    - nwah1 6y ago
      If a payment channel is still open, then the blockchain hasn't confirmed anything yet, the only speedup is to reduce roundtrips to the blockchain in the case of a series of transactions. So you are still limited by the speed of the blockchain, unless you decide to trust parties in the Lightning Network.
      - nwah1 6y ago
        Onion routing also requires trust that there is no collusion between nodes
        varajelle 6y ago
        You seem to dislike lightning network, but the reason given are not accurate. What would happen if there was collusion between nodes? And while it is true that you are still limited by the Blockchain speed if the nodes don't cooperate, all the incentives are made so they do cooperate and that transactions happen near instantly.
        nwah1 6y ago
        Incentives in the existing ACH and SWIFT systems are such that transactions are fast and accurate. But businesses have to follow the law. If a regulation were imposed, people would feel a need to comply. If they said to block transactions from Iran, on penalty of imprisonment, then they would do so. Etc. Avoiding all of that was the exact motivation for bitcoin. Adding all of the features and drawbacks of existing systems into bitcoin would undermine bitcoin's reason for existence. Centralization at every layer of bitcoin has been the rule. Mining, exchanges, etc. Their dominance is so complete that if only a few of the primary exchanges were to blacklist an individual, they would have a very difficult time. In the same way that Mastercard and VISA banning PornHub is a major harm to that website. Censorship-resistance is thus out the window, and there really isn't that many benefits left for bitcoin after that.
itsdsmurrell 6y ago
For a large fee and with a lot of uncertainty on if it will make it into a block. Try the fork of Bitcoin that still operates like Bitcoin used to up until 2016: Bitcoin Cash.
- three_seagrass 6y ago
  Bitcoin cash is just another alt coin at this point. Transactions have been dwindling and it hasn't even had a reason to flex it's larger block size yet (which is why it was created).
  - itsdsmurrell 6y ago
    Yes, it's a pity people are so easily manipulated.