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Yes, but not with Bitcoin. Etherium is currently moving from Proof-of-Work to Proof-of-Stake. https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/staking/ https://ethereum.org/en/eth

Yes, but not with Bitcoin. Etherium is currently moving from Proof-of-Work to Proof-of-Stake. https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/staking/ https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/staking/

bfgoodrich 6y ago
Hasn't Ethereum been moving to proof-of-stake for years now? It seems like something that is never going to actually happen, but is always held as redeeming.
latchkey 6y ago
Ethereum [sic] is moving to PoS from PoW, but ETH doesn't suffer the same growth issue that BTC does because its hash algo is effectively tied to its hardware. It can run on PoW indefinitely and will likely do so for several more years until PoS is fully ready. There are a few asic's for ETH, but the hash algo is fundamentally executed through memory. Even if you build an asic for ETH, you are always tied to the speed of memory. Therefore, a GPU is going to be the most ROI efficient mechanism for a long time (asics cost more to build than a commodity GPU) and even more so, older GPUs work just as well from a ROI perspective because newer GPUs are more expensive. This means ETH does not see the same hashrate growth (and energy usage) as BTC, while maintaining the same level of security. The vast majority of energy usage for blockchains, is green energy hydropower using excess power from facilities that already exist. Why? Because this is the lowest cost and prior to this current bull run, was the only way to be profitable.
- addaon 6y ago
  > asics cost more to build than a commodity GPU Why would this be true? The R&D costs of a commodity GPU can be amortized across more customers than an ASIC, and the same is somewhat true for capital costs (masks, etc) -- but the manufacturing cost of an ASIC should be at worst the same as a GPU (with one fewer middleman adding a margin on top of those costs), and in general cheaper (since die size can be reduced, or an older process can be used).
  - latchkey 6y ago
    Technically, a GPU is an ASIC. It really boils down to economy of scale. AMD can produce chips (and solutions) at much more scale (and thus far less expensive) than relatively small Innosilicon can. AMD has closer relationships to the fabs. It also is other factors that go into this. Like the critical memory controller component. AMD owns the patents. AMD can also buy memory chips in larger bulk (and thus less expensive). Also, the R&D on GPU's is an already amortized cost. They already exist. ASICs have to be engineered from the ground up and do what GPU's already do. At the end of the day, this is also beneficial because GPU's can be repurposed, while sha256 ASICs are just e-waste every time a new round of smaller nm tech comes out.
- echelon 6y ago
  Is Ethereum going to be worth more than Bitcoin (market cap) when people realize how technologically superior it is?
  - latchkey 6y ago
    If I could predict the future, I'd be rich already! =)
    - echelon 6y ago
      True, but sometimes a preponderance of smart opinions helps predict the shape of the future. (Or where I want to put my money :P)
      - latchkey 6y ago
        Strong opinion warning then. I see a place for both BTC and ETH. BTC is digital gold (yes, I know HN hates that, but short of a better set of words, it is what it is.) The thing that, in my opinion, disconnects ETH from BTC is CeFi/DeFi. It really is the programmable money... but not money in the context of a currency every day people spend. I'm talking about money in the context of "institutional money". Like the trading desks in Wall Street. Where money goes to use in making more money. All those crazy algo's that people use to pool funds and hedge and trade are getting created out in the open now and solidified (see the pun?) in code. That is where ETH shines. The amount of development and innovation happening there, at 'move fast and break things' speed is literally amazing. Heavy emphasis on 'break' because these things are getting hacked almost daily. But just like crypto exchanges (which used to get hacked daily), it'll settle down eventually. Interestingly, as soon as I could (Nov 6th), I bought $100 each of BTC and ETH on paypal within minutes of each other. A little experiment. Today, the ETH is worth 5.5% more and both are up a combined 32%. I don't think people are paying close enough attention to this difference because they are blinded by the 32%.

Yes, but not with Bitcoin. Etherium is currently moving from Proof-of-Work to Proof-of-Stake. https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/staking/ https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/staking/

bfgoodrich 6y ago

Hasn't Ethereum been moving to proof-of-stake for years now? It seems like something that is never going to actually happen, but is always held as redeeming.

latchkey 6y ago

Ethereum [sic] is moving to PoS from PoW, but ETH doesn't suffer the same growth issue that BTC does because its hash algo is effectively tied to its hardware. It can run on PoW indefinitely and will likely do so for several more years until PoS is fully ready. There are a few asic's for ETH, but the hash algo is fundamentally executed through memory. Even if you build an asic for ETH, you are always tied to the speed of memory. Therefore, a GPU is going to be the most ROI efficient mechanism for a long time (asics cost more to build than a commodity GPU) and even more so, older GPUs work just as well from a ROI perspective because newer GPUs are more expensive. This means ETH does not see the same hashrate growth (and energy usage) as BTC, while maintaining the same level of security. The vast majority of energy usage for blockchains, is green energy hydropower using excess power from facilities that already exist. Why? Because this is the lowest cost and prior to this current bull run, was the only way to be profitable.

addaon 6y ago
> asics cost more to build than a commodity GPU Why would this be true? The R&D costs of a commodity GPU can be amortized across more customers than an ASIC, and the same is somewhat true for capital costs (masks, etc) -- but the manufacturing cost of an ASIC should be at worst the same as a GPU (with one fewer middleman adding a margin on top of those costs), and in general cheaper (since die size can be reduced, or an older process can be used).
- latchkey 6y ago
  Technically, a GPU is an ASIC. It really boils down to economy of scale. AMD can produce chips (and solutions) at much more scale (and thus far less expensive) than relatively small Innosilicon can. AMD has closer relationships to the fabs. It also is other factors that go into this. Like the critical memory controller component. AMD owns the patents. AMD can also buy memory chips in larger bulk (and thus less expensive). Also, the R&D on GPU's is an already amortized cost. They already exist. ASICs have to be engineered from the ground up and do what GPU's already do. At the end of the day, this is also beneficial because GPU's can be repurposed, while sha256 ASICs are just e-waste every time a new round of smaller nm tech comes out.
echelon 6y ago
Is Ethereum going to be worth more than Bitcoin (market cap) when people realize how technologically superior it is?
- latchkey 6y ago
  If I could predict the future, I'd be rich already! =)
  - echelon 6y ago
    True, but sometimes a preponderance of smart opinions helps predict the shape of the future. (Or where I want to put my money :P)
    - latchkey 6y ago
      Strong opinion warning then. I see a place for both BTC and ETH. BTC is digital gold (yes, I know HN hates that, but short of a better set of words, it is what it is.) The thing that, in my opinion, disconnects ETH from BTC is CeFi/DeFi. It really is the programmable money... but not money in the context of a currency every day people spend. I'm talking about money in the context of "institutional money". Like the trading desks in Wall Street. Where money goes to use in making more money. All those crazy algo's that people use to pool funds and hedge and trade are getting created out in the open now and solidified (see the pun?) in code. That is where ETH shines. The amount of development and innovation happening there, at 'move fast and break things' speed is literally amazing. Heavy emphasis on 'break' because these things are getting hacked almost daily. But just like crypto exchanges (which used to get hacked daily), it'll settle down eventually. Interestingly, as soon as I could (Nov 6th), I bought $100 each of BTC and ETH on paypal within minutes of each other. A little experiment. Today, the ETH is worth 5.5% more and both are up a combined 32%. I don't think people are paying close enough attention to this difference because they are blinded by the 32%.