5 ms·

Funny how we still call it a CD image, are there actually any AArch64 Windows laptops with a CD drive? Can you even boot from an external CD drive on such lapto

Funny how we still call it a CD image, are there actually any AArch64 Windows laptops with a CD drive? Can you even boot from an external CD drive on such laptops?

zinekeller 6y ago
I'm pretty sure that even x86 UEFI cannot boot from CDs/DVDs (unless they are in BIOS emulation mode). This is the reason why physical retail Windows 10 images are in a read-only USB. Update: some enterprise UEFI setups do boot from DVDs but the ISO should be a hybrid type (aka must have EFI-style partitions).
- roblabla 6y ago
  UEFI supports bootable DVDs, although they use an extension of El Torrito. See section 13.3.2.1 of the UEFI Specification, Version 2.8. > To boot from a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM in the boot services environment, an EFI System partition is stored in a “no emulation” mode as defined by the “El Torito” specification. This was chosen specifically to allow polyglot ISO files that can both be booted bh UEFI and legacy BIOS. The implementation of tools to create such polyglot files are, to say the least, interesting. The tools effectively generate both a FAT and ISO partition, each having its own file information table, but sharing the actual file contents.
  - xmodem 6y ago
    This sounds fascinating and horrific. Where can I learn more?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - pabs3 6y ago
      https://wiki.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php?title=Isohybrid https://wiki.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php?title=Isohybrid https://repo.or.cz/syslinux.git/blob/HEAD:/utils/isohybrid.c https://repo.or.cz/syslinux.git/blob/HEAD:/utils/isohybrid.c
    - tremon 6y ago
      Matthew Garrett wrote about this, about a decade ago. It turns out you can create an iso/usb hybrid image that boots correctly on all combinations of BIOS/UEFI, optical disc/usb drive, and PC/Mac. https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/4957.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/4957.html
      - toast0 6y ago
        Dreamcast uses El Torito for booting as well, I bet you could make that work too. Possible issues are that I don't know if the Dreamcast will inspect multiple boot images to find an appropriately labeled one, and I don't know if the other platforms will accept a bootable disc that's prepared for Dreamcast (must have at least two sessions, first session audio, second session data with el torito for booting)
  - flatiron 6y ago
    https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2014/readings/boot-cdrom.pdf https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2014/readings/boot-cdrom.pd... Phoenix and IBM coming up with a standard. Wonder if that was still a hard pill the swallow in 1995.
    - chungus_khan 6y ago
      Ultimately they had to if they wanted BIOS to be able to boot CD-ROMs. The BIOS boot sequence sticking around for so long is an unfortunate consequence of it becoming a decentralized standard outside of any one vendor's control, and so the only way to make it all work was for vendors to agree, and the solutions wouldn't be obvious or trivial in most cases because that boot sequence is incredibly primitive and full of assumptions coherent in a system with two floppy drives and maybe a disk if you were lucky. But I'm sure the bad blood was measurable, especially for the higher-ups.
- chungus_khan 6y ago
  UEFI doesn't much care what sort of storage medium something is on, so long as it is capable of reading it and it has a valid EFI partition. It is much less picky than BIOS, for which the El Torito standard had to be invented, and can be implemented easily on disks that use that format for dual-use. I haven't encountered UEFI implementations that don't support optical disks but I imagine it is possible there are some laptop vendors that might not have implemented optical drive support.
jojo2000 6y ago
debian cd images can be dd'ed on an usb key (at least on x86 with legacy bios/uefi) [0] [0] https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/ch04s03.html.en https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/ch04s03.html.en
ksec 6y ago
That is sort of an interesting question on its own. Those born after 2000 didn't know anything about the "Save Icon" ( Floppy Disc ). And those born after 2010s, might never have seen a CD or DVD.
- kemonocode 6y ago
  That's kind of horrifying in itself, considering I don't think there's a viable alternative for (WORM) mid-to-long term data storage most people have access to. Of course, in practice with optic media you may stumble upon varying forms of bit rot, scratches or recording errors so it's definitively not the be-all and end-all, but still, I've got CDs recorded 30 years ago I can still read in modern systems and that I won't wipe by accident.
  - Denvercoder9 6y ago
    Blu-ray's are still reasonably common, though they are slowly disappearing as well and I don't think there will ever be a successor. Fact is that write-once read-many is just not considered a very valuable property by itself, and as rewritable storage is becoming cheaper (if only by economies of scale) it'll displace them.
- sombrero_guitar 6y ago
  A CD is like a DVD with only sound. A DVD is like a Blu Ray but can't hold as much. A Blu Ray is what your PlayStation/Xbox games come on. Given the popularity of game consoles and that most of them still use optical media, I don't think CD/DVDs are things that a young person would be unfamiliar with. Unlike floppy disks which have no equivalent or use for average people these days.
  - raffraffraff 6y ago
    No love for MiniDisc data or Zip Drive :( Me neither!

Funny how we still call it a CD image, are there actually any AArch64 Windows laptops with a CD drive? Can you even boot from an external CD drive on such laptops?

zinekeller 6y ago

I'm pretty sure that even x86 UEFI cannot boot from CDs/DVDs (unless they are in BIOS emulation mode). This is the reason why physical retail Windows 10 images are in a read-only USB. Update: some enterprise UEFI setups do boot from DVDs but the ISO should be a hybrid type (aka must have EFI-style partitions).

roblabla 6y ago
UEFI supports bootable DVDs, although they use an extension of El Torrito. See section 13.3.2.1 of the UEFI Specification, Version 2.8. > To boot from a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM in the boot services environment, an EFI System partition is stored in a “no emulation” mode as defined by the “El Torito” specification. This was chosen specifically to allow polyglot ISO files that can both be booted bh UEFI and legacy BIOS. The implementation of tools to create such polyglot files are, to say the least, interesting. The tools effectively generate both a FAT and ISO partition, each having its own file information table, but sharing the actual file contents.
- xmodem 6y ago
  This sounds fascinating and horrific. Where can I learn more?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pabs3 6y ago
    https://wiki.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php?title=Isohybrid https://wiki.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php?title=Isohybrid https://repo.or.cz/syslinux.git/blob/HEAD:/utils/isohybrid.c https://repo.or.cz/syslinux.git/blob/HEAD:/utils/isohybrid.c
  - tremon 6y ago
    Matthew Garrett wrote about this, about a decade ago. It turns out you can create an iso/usb hybrid image that boots correctly on all combinations of BIOS/UEFI, optical disc/usb drive, and PC/Mac. https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/4957.html https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/4957.html
    - toast0 6y ago
      Dreamcast uses El Torito for booting as well, I bet you could make that work too. Possible issues are that I don't know if the Dreamcast will inspect multiple boot images to find an appropriately labeled one, and I don't know if the other platforms will accept a bootable disc that's prepared for Dreamcast (must have at least two sessions, first session audio, second session data with el torito for booting)
- flatiron 6y ago
  https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2014/readings/boot-cdrom.pdf https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2014/readings/boot-cdrom.pd... Phoenix and IBM coming up with a standard. Wonder if that was still a hard pill the swallow in 1995.
  - chungus_khan 6y ago
    Ultimately they had to if they wanted BIOS to be able to boot CD-ROMs. The BIOS boot sequence sticking around for so long is an unfortunate consequence of it becoming a decentralized standard outside of any one vendor's control, and so the only way to make it all work was for vendors to agree, and the solutions wouldn't be obvious or trivial in most cases because that boot sequence is incredibly primitive and full of assumptions coherent in a system with two floppy drives and maybe a disk if you were lucky. But I'm sure the bad blood was measurable, especially for the higher-ups.
chungus_khan 6y ago
UEFI doesn't much care what sort of storage medium something is on, so long as it is capable of reading it and it has a valid EFI partition. It is much less picky than BIOS, for which the El Torito standard had to be invented, and can be implemented easily on disks that use that format for dual-use. I haven't encountered UEFI implementations that don't support optical disks but I imagine it is possible there are some laptop vendors that might not have implemented optical drive support.

jojo2000 6y ago

debian cd images can be dd'ed on an usb key (at least on x86 with legacy bios/uefi) [0] [0] https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/ch04s03.html.en https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/ch04s03.html.en

ksec 6y ago

That is sort of an interesting question on its own. Those born after 2000 didn't know anything about the "Save Icon" ( Floppy Disc ). And those born after 2010s, might never have seen a CD or DVD.

kemonocode 6y ago
That's kind of horrifying in itself, considering I don't think there's a viable alternative for (WORM) mid-to-long term data storage most people have access to. Of course, in practice with optic media you may stumble upon varying forms of bit rot, scratches or recording errors so it's definitively not the be-all and end-all, but still, I've got CDs recorded 30 years ago I can still read in modern systems and that I won't wipe by accident.
- Denvercoder9 6y ago
  Blu-ray's are still reasonably common, though they are slowly disappearing as well and I don't think there will ever be a successor. Fact is that write-once read-many is just not considered a very valuable property by itself, and as rewritable storage is becoming cheaper (if only by economies of scale) it'll displace them.
sombrero_guitar 6y ago
A CD is like a DVD with only sound. A DVD is like a Blu Ray but can't hold as much. A Blu Ray is what your PlayStation/Xbox games come on. Given the popularity of game consoles and that most of them still use optical media, I don't think CD/DVDs are things that a young person would be unfamiliar with. Unlike floppy disks which have no equivalent or use for average people these days.
- raffraffraff 6y ago
  No love for MiniDisc data or Zip Drive :( Me neither!