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People will suggest running your own mail server, and if you have the time and energy then definitely do that. But the next best thing you can do is simply jus

People will suggest running your own mail server, and if you have the time and energy then definitely do that. But the next best thing you can do is simply just use your own domain. That way, you can at least decide to migrate your email elsewhere. Don't use the free domains you get from things like gmail or other providers, because then you have to _change_ your email address, and not just your MX records.

oakfr 6y ago
Good luck getting the same quality of service as gmail with your own mail server. The fact that gmail fails every so often (extremely rarely actually) is a good sign: zero failure would mean that they are over-investing in quality and losing flexibility. Gmail only needs to be as good as the best web service out there.
- gpmcadam 6y ago
  But you can pay for email from other providers like Fastmail and Proton and just have your own domain with MX pointing at them. Services are better in my opinion when you pay for them and you’re not the product.
  - fwn 6y ago
    > Services are better in my opinion when you pay for them and you’re not the product. Services also tend to be better if lock-in effects on customers are low. ... and using your own domain for email does reduce lock-in significantly. unrelated: the link in your profile does not seem to work.
    - gpmcadam 6y ago
      thanks! i stopped using keybase when they were acquired by zoom and didn't update my bio.
    - oakfr 6y ago
      Does gmail have such a big lock-in effect on users since it allows them to use the gmail interface with their own email? (i.e. you can split the service and the UI)
      - madsbuch 6y ago
        Yes, gmail is complete lock in (with current legislation). You can not move your `@gmail.com` address to another provider eg. Proton. But there is a case for making legislation forcing email providers to allow moving emails to other providers (how it should be done technically is another question). This is already in effect for telephone numbers many places.
      - gpmcadam 6y ago
        I was lucky enough to get in at the ground for the Apps for Business (or whatever name it has now) service when it was free, and I was able to use my own domain for that. As such, migrating these email addresses was easy enough. My older @gmail and @googlemail ones though, not so easy. I've been moving each account I have used with these addresses one-by-one, but you never catch them all and even when you do, some services simply will not let you change your email address. I recall being so excited when Gmail first launched and was one of the first people to get a Beta invite. I regret ever signing up for them now, given the headache it has been to get off it.
- madsbuch 6y ago
  Parent suggests to just run mail on your own domain. The main thing here is to avoid single point of failure as in both domains (politically induced problems) and infrastructure (technically induced problems). If people would use more than just a handful domains/providers for mail then single failures would not have that big of an impact. I have been hosting my mail on my own domain for the past 3 years and have not been impacted by this incident. Currently I am happy for protonmail that I use to host my mails at. But I know that I can easily move on, if service drops, and even selfhost.
- martin_a 6y ago
  Uptimes in Germany are usually 99.9% for most hosters. I think Gmail has lost to all of those yesterday.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  > the same quality of service and the weight of google as well! an individual mail getting onto an blacklist is most often than not a dead sentence for the address, the domain and sometimes even the ip. but if google is at fault and email get into a permanently removed bucket, like in this event, it's in the interest of the other to play nice and accommodate for the fault. I think people severely underestimate how hard it actually is to consistently deliver email in 2020 between dkim, spf and domain keys while tiptoeing around everyone else ip/email antispam services.
deadalus 6y ago
I have been doing this. I bought a domain and am using zoho.com to send and receive emails for free. Storage is only 5GB but I can always pay if I want more.
mouldysammich 6y ago
yep, i've found it to be extremely worthwhile having your own domain. Its more effort but once its setup its way easier to avoid lock in to a company. I also run my own and its been easier than expected, especially with maddy: https://github.com/foxcpp/maddy https://github.com/foxcpp/maddy
NicoJuicy 6y ago
In most cases, this also makes you more vulnerable to a dns hijacking attempt. I'd still suggest to put "secrets" in a free global trusted email provider with 2fa
Triv888 6y ago
You need to at least hide your domain whois contact information if you are going to do this...
- RealStickman_ 6y ago
  Many domain name registrars offer that as a service.
  - Triv888 6y ago
    Yes but it often is not the default and as you know, most people dont change defaults (and there is also an extra monthly fee, which is a scam) I know people here dont think its a scam but it is
cutler 6y ago
The main problem with self-hosting is indiscriminate blacklisting by Google and Microsoft. You only need to be on the same network as some spam artist to end up shunned. The tech giants are our new overlords.
- skrause 6y ago
  You can self-host the receiving side of your mail server (with spam filtering etc.), but send all your mail through a mail provider with a good reputation. Configure your own SMTP server to use that other server as a relay, you can even do your own DKIM signing before sending off your mail. At least then you shouldn't have a problem with IP reputation.
- LeonM 6y ago
  No, it is not. It really grinds my gears if people are spreading misinformation about 'being on the same network as a spammer', 'indiscriminate blacklists' and corporate overlords for being the reason on why their email is not being delivered. Spam filters have been content driven for a long time now. IP addresses and domain names are ephemeral and so are 'blacklists'. With the amount of spam being send, we would have blacklisted the entire internet by now. If a spam filter gives false positives, it hurts the receiver just as much as the sender. The real problem with self-hosting is that the majority of self-hosted e-mail servers are terribly configured. Getting the SMTP server running is one thing, but getting DKIM, DMARC, SPF, TLS and MTA-STS running properly is often overlooked. What was the last time you checked the validity of the TLS certificate of your SMTP server? Get your server and domain setup properly. Sign your email with DKIM, setup an SPF and DMARC policy and perform DMARC monitoring to spot problems. Setup TLS and an MTA-STS policy service for your incoming email. Throw in SMTP-TLS-reporting for good measure. E-mail servers are not set-and-forget if you want to do it right. And this is not the fault of large corps, it's the spammers who got us in this situation. It's really easy to blame large services or blaming your email deliverability problems on being on the same IP block as a spammer, but really it's almost always a misconfiguration on your side. Disclaimer: I'm the founder of Mailhardener (https://www.mailhardener.com https://www.mailhardener.com), we do e-mail hardening and solve deliverability issues.
  - 6y ago
martin_a 6y ago
10 GB space, 1 tld domain of your choice, 99,9% uptime for 1.85€/month with a setup fee of 10€. Hetzner will take care of everything else for you as it's managed webhosting. https://www.hetzner.com/de/webhosting https://www.hetzner.com/de/webhosting Just because you can (theoretically) run your own infrastructure does not mean you should. Trust the professionals. You don't do your own surgeries, do you? (not affiliated to Hetzner, just was the first offer I thought of.)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- morganvachon 6y ago
  I've used Fastmail for several years now with no issues apart from a slowdown in the phone app a few months back (website still loaded fine). It's a bit more expensive at $50/year/user (about $4.17/month), but you get 25GB of combined mail and file storage, contact/calendar/note syncing, simple static web hosting that's good in a pinch, a very nice web front end, and superb customer support. Not affiliated with them just a happy customer. It's still putting all your eggs in one basket in a sense, but being a paid service there's a sense of privacy, security, and permanence that Gmail and the other free providers don't offer. I do own my own domain as well, and I have mail accounts tied to it that I use for certain services and communications, mostly medical and local businesses, but I'm still at the mercy of my hosting provider for that domain. With that said, my provider (Tiger Technologies) has been astoundingly awesome and has never let me down in 12+ years of service.
ashkankiani 6y ago
I agree with this, and setting it up with Fastmail was so easy, I set up two more domains just for fun. Same goes for adding import from Gmail/Softbank/Apple/anywhere. It's like a 1 minute procedure to import an account, literally. Excellent product, glad I migrated off of Gmail.
JackMcMack 6y ago
I'm trying (mailcow was easy to set up), but it seems all self-hosted solutions do not support snoozing mails. To me this is a must have feature.
8fingerlouie 6y ago
> People will suggest running your own mail server, and if you have the time and energy then definitely do that. As a learning experience, sure, but most people are not prepared for what running a 24/7 mail service requires of them. First of all, a static, non-residential IP is likely needed. The big players will flat out refuse receiption if your IP is registered as residential, so that rules out hosting it from your home despite having gigabit internet. You also need SPF, DMARC and DKIM working, or major players will also flat out refuse reception. On top of that, you need to implement the infrastructure to actually host a server 24/7, including patching and backups, as well as monitoring it for unauthorized access. Despite all of the above, you may still find yourself on a spam/block list, and removing yourself from these can also turn into a large task. Part of the irony of Gmail having outages is that Google and other "large players" have fought long and hard for a decade to make it harder to host your own mail server. It has been done in the name of fighting spam, but i doubt any of them minded it making it harder to run your own. So yeah, build your own mail server as a learning experience. Then move the domain to someone dedicated to running it. I purchased a lifetime subscription (limited promo offer) with mxroute.com. 10GB mail storage, unlimited domains and accounts (limited by space only), as well as a Nextcloud instance for all your users. Service and uptime has been nothing but exceptional. Customer support is actually reachable. The only downside is that the spam filter (SpamAssassin IIRC) is not as highly trained as the GMail one, so more spam comes through.
- dmm 6y ago
  > First of all, a static, non-residential IP is likely needed. If you want to directly send mail that's true. But if you send mail through a smarthost, like your isp's smtp server, you can easily receive mail on a dynamic, residential ip. > implement the infrastructure to actually host a server 24/7, email is really tolerant of downtime. You can be down for hours without losing mail. The sending servers will retry for a while.
  - 8fingerlouie 6y ago
    > email is really tolerant of downtime. You can be down for hours without losing mail. The sending servers will retry for a while. I’m aware senders will retry for days if your server doesn’t reply, but it still requires monitoring and is not just a “fire and forget” solution. Also, if your server starts bouncing emails, chances are you’ll be missing mails. Again, needs monitoring.

oakfr 6y ago

Good luck getting the same quality of service as gmail with your own mail server. The fact that gmail fails every so often (extremely rarely actually) is a good sign: zero failure would mean that they are over-investing in quality and losing flexibility. Gmail only needs to be as good as the best web service out there.

gpmcadam 6y ago
But you can pay for email from other providers like Fastmail and Proton and just have your own domain with MX pointing at them. Services are better in my opinion when you pay for them and you’re not the product.
- fwn 6y ago
  > Services are better in my opinion when you pay for them and you’re not the product. Services also tend to be better if lock-in effects on customers are low. ... and using your own domain for email does reduce lock-in significantly. unrelated: the link in your profile does not seem to work.
  - gpmcadam 6y ago
    thanks! i stopped using keybase when they were acquired by zoom and didn't update my bio.
  - oakfr 6y ago
    Does gmail have such a big lock-in effect on users since it allows them to use the gmail interface with their own email? (i.e. you can split the service and the UI)
    - madsbuch 6y ago
      Yes, gmail is complete lock in (with current legislation). You can not move your `@gmail.com` address to another provider eg. Proton. But there is a case for making legislation forcing email providers to allow moving emails to other providers (how it should be done technically is another question). This is already in effect for telephone numbers many places.
    - gpmcadam 6y ago
      I was lucky enough to get in at the ground for the Apps for Business (or whatever name it has now) service when it was free, and I was able to use my own domain for that. As such, migrating these email addresses was easy enough. My older @gmail and @googlemail ones though, not so easy. I've been moving each account I have used with these addresses one-by-one, but you never catch them all and even when you do, some services simply will not let you change your email address. I recall being so excited when Gmail first launched and was one of the first people to get a Beta invite. I regret ever signing up for them now, given the headache it has been to get off it.
madsbuch 6y ago
Parent suggests to just run mail on your own domain. The main thing here is to avoid single point of failure as in both domains (politically induced problems) and infrastructure (technically induced problems). If people would use more than just a handful domains/providers for mail then single failures would not have that big of an impact. I have been hosting my mail on my own domain for the past 3 years and have not been impacted by this incident. Currently I am happy for protonmail that I use to host my mails at. But I know that I can easily move on, if service drops, and even selfhost.
martin_a 6y ago
Uptimes in Germany are usually 99.9% for most hosters. I think Gmail has lost to all of those yesterday.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
LoSboccacc 6y ago
> the same quality of service and the weight of google as well! an individual mail getting onto an blacklist is most often than not a dead sentence for the address, the domain and sometimes even the ip. but if google is at fault and email get into a permanently removed bucket, like in this event, it's in the interest of the other to play nice and accommodate for the fault. I think people severely underestimate how hard it actually is to consistently deliver email in 2020 between dkim, spf and domain keys while tiptoeing around everyone else ip/email antispam services.

deadalus 6y ago

I have been doing this. I bought a domain and am using zoho.com to send and receive emails for free. Storage is only 5GB but I can always pay if I want more.

mouldysammich 6y ago

yep, i've found it to be extremely worthwhile having your own domain. Its more effort but once its setup its way easier to avoid lock in to a company. I also run my own and its been easier than expected, especially with maddy: https://github.com/foxcpp/maddy https://github.com/foxcpp/maddy

NicoJuicy 6y ago

In most cases, this also makes you more vulnerable to a dns hijacking attempt. I'd still suggest to put "secrets" in a free global trusted email provider with 2fa

Triv888 6y ago

You need to at least hide your domain whois contact information if you are going to do this...

RealStickman_ 6y ago
Many domain name registrars offer that as a service.
- Triv888 6y ago
  Yes but it often is not the default and as you know, most people dont change defaults (and there is also an extra monthly fee, which is a scam) I know people here dont think its a scam but it is

cutler 6y ago

The main problem with self-hosting is indiscriminate blacklisting by Google and Microsoft. You only need to be on the same network as some spam artist to end up shunned. The tech giants are our new overlords.

skrause 6y ago
You can self-host the receiving side of your mail server (with spam filtering etc.), but send all your mail through a mail provider with a good reputation. Configure your own SMTP server to use that other server as a relay, you can even do your own DKIM signing before sending off your mail. At least then you shouldn't have a problem with IP reputation.
LeonM 6y ago
No, it is not. It really grinds my gears if people are spreading misinformation about 'being on the same network as a spammer', 'indiscriminate blacklists' and corporate overlords for being the reason on why their email is not being delivered. Spam filters have been content driven for a long time now. IP addresses and domain names are ephemeral and so are 'blacklists'. With the amount of spam being send, we would have blacklisted the entire internet by now. If a spam filter gives false positives, it hurts the receiver just as much as the sender. The real problem with self-hosting is that the majority of self-hosted e-mail servers are terribly configured. Getting the SMTP server running is one thing, but getting DKIM, DMARC, SPF, TLS and MTA-STS running properly is often overlooked. What was the last time you checked the validity of the TLS certificate of your SMTP server? Get your server and domain setup properly. Sign your email with DKIM, setup an SPF and DMARC policy and perform DMARC monitoring to spot problems. Setup TLS and an MTA-STS policy service for your incoming email. Throw in SMTP-TLS-reporting for good measure. E-mail servers are not set-and-forget if you want to do it right. And this is not the fault of large corps, it's the spammers who got us in this situation. It's really easy to blame large services or blaming your email deliverability problems on being on the same IP block as a spammer, but really it's almost always a misconfiguration on your side. Disclaimer: I'm the founder of Mailhardener (https://www.mailhardener.com https://www.mailhardener.com), we do e-mail hardening and solve deliverability issues.
- 6y ago

martin_a 6y ago

10 GB space, 1 tld domain of your choice, 99,9% uptime for 1.85€/month with a setup fee of 10€. Hetzner will take care of everything else for you as it's managed webhosting. https://www.hetzner.com/de/webhosting https://www.hetzner.com/de/webhosting Just because you can (theoretically) run your own infrastructure does not mean you should. Trust the professionals. You don't do your own surgeries, do you? (not affiliated to Hetzner, just was the first offer I thought of.)

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
morganvachon 6y ago
I've used Fastmail for several years now with no issues apart from a slowdown in the phone app a few months back (website still loaded fine). It's a bit more expensive at $50/year/user (about $4.17/month), but you get 25GB of combined mail and file storage, contact/calendar/note syncing, simple static web hosting that's good in a pinch, a very nice web front end, and superb customer support. Not affiliated with them just a happy customer. It's still putting all your eggs in one basket in a sense, but being a paid service there's a sense of privacy, security, and permanence that Gmail and the other free providers don't offer. I do own my own domain as well, and I have mail accounts tied to it that I use for certain services and communications, mostly medical and local businesses, but I'm still at the mercy of my hosting provider for that domain. With that said, my provider (Tiger Technologies) has been astoundingly awesome and has never let me down in 12+ years of service.

ashkankiani 6y ago

I agree with this, and setting it up with Fastmail was so easy, I set up two more domains just for fun. Same goes for adding import from Gmail/Softbank/Apple/anywhere. It's like a 1 minute procedure to import an account, literally. Excellent product, glad I migrated off of Gmail.

JackMcMack 6y ago

I'm trying (mailcow was easy to set up), but it seems all self-hosted solutions do not support snoozing mails. To me this is a must have feature.

8fingerlouie 6y ago

> People will suggest running your own mail server, and if you have the time and energy then definitely do that. As a learning experience, sure, but most people are not prepared for what running a 24/7 mail service requires of them. First of all, a static, non-residential IP is likely needed. The big players will flat out refuse receiption if your IP is registered as residential, so that rules out hosting it from your home despite having gigabit internet. You also need SPF, DMARC and DKIM working, or major players will also flat out refuse reception. On top of that, you need to implement the infrastructure to actually host a server 24/7, including patching and backups, as well as monitoring it for unauthorized access. Despite all of the above, you may still find yourself on a spam/block list, and removing yourself from these can also turn into a large task. Part of the irony of Gmail having outages is that Google and other "large players" have fought long and hard for a decade to make it harder to host your own mail server. It has been done in the name of fighting spam, but i doubt any of them minded it making it harder to run your own. So yeah, build your own mail server as a learning experience. Then move the domain to someone dedicated to running it. I purchased a lifetime subscription (limited promo offer) with mxroute.com. 10GB mail storage, unlimited domains and accounts (limited by space only), as well as a Nextcloud instance for all your users. Service and uptime has been nothing but exceptional. Customer support is actually reachable. The only downside is that the spam filter (SpamAssassin IIRC) is not as highly trained as the GMail one, so more spam comes through.

dmm 6y ago
> First of all, a static, non-residential IP is likely needed. If you want to directly send mail that's true. But if you send mail through a smarthost, like your isp's smtp server, you can easily receive mail on a dynamic, residential ip. > implement the infrastructure to actually host a server 24/7, email is really tolerant of downtime. You can be down for hours without losing mail. The sending servers will retry for a while.
- 8fingerlouie 6y ago
  > email is really tolerant of downtime. You can be down for hours without losing mail. The sending servers will retry for a while. I’m aware senders will retry for days if your server doesn’t reply, but it still requires monitoring and is not just a “fire and forget” solution. Also, if your server starts bouncing emails, chances are you’ll be missing mails. Again, needs monitoring.