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Except the UK and US security agencies share data freely through the Five Eyes alliance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Except the UK and US security agencies share data freely through the Five Eyes alliance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

avianlyric 6y ago
Yes, and as UK citizen I can hold my government to account through the democratic process if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. Notably the Five Eyes alliance used this exact setup to avoid local laws and democratic accountability, I don't want it to be easier for it to continue. I sure as shit can't hold the US government to account.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  > if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. How will you know?
  - avianlyric 6y ago
    Another Snowden? Change in government? Does it really matter? Point is I help elect the UK government, that means I can change it. Does not apply to the US government, so the US government could put full page ads in the Daily Mail talking about how the abuse the data of UK citizens, and there's diddly squat I could do about it.
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      How do you know which party will do what, once in government? You wait for another Snowden and replace them again? What if your preferred nice politician enters power and is briefed on things that make him realize there are more upsides to the project to combat national security issues, and secretly continues things? It's very hard to have popular control over secret operations where you may only sporadically learn about things via whistleblowers once in a while. It's quite different from visible policies like banning or legalizing gay marriage, abortion, raising or lowering taxes or the minimum wage etc.
      - avianlyric 6y ago
        Not really sure why any of that matters. It’s pretty simple, I would rather have my data stored somewhere I have some level of recourse for privacy violations. Even if that recourse is long drawn out and difficult, than somewhere I have no recourse, and never will have any recourse. I really don’t understand why you’re struggling to understand that. Talking about the relative merits of different governments is completely meaningless, if I can only elect and influence one of them. Based on your arguments I should just lie down and let every world government and company trample all over my rights, because it’s all hopeless anyway.
        bonoboTP 6y ago
        Just don't overestimate the effect of the data location. You have other tools as well, including controlling more tightly what information you share on platforms like Facebook. Now surely, they do track us regardless, shadow profiles, like buttons etc. Also on the other side of things, does it harm me more if a foreign government holds information on me, random Joe, or if my own government holds the same info? Which one cares more about the info and might have incentives to abuse it? What if China has a profile on me? I'll most likely never enter China anyway. I don't live and work in the US, why would them mining my data be so dangerous?
        avianlyric 6y ago
        > Also on the other side of things, does it harm me more if a foreign government holds information on me, random Joe, or if my own government holds the same info? Might be a good question for Kim Dotcom. Regardless of your views on his various business, it hard to explain how the US arresting a non-US citizen outside of the US isn’t a huge and worrying overstep by the US. Now I probably don’t need to worry about a Kim Dotcom style raid on my home, but I see no reason why I should make it easy for the US to do that if they wanted too. And regardless of hypothetical harms by the US government. Privacy is my right, and I’ll defend it. Why on earth should I be comfortable with my data being taken by governments around the world that don’t share my world view? (And the US government certainly doesn’t share my world views). Once again, at least I can hold my government accountable. I notionally understand U.K. law, and the U.K. legal system, and thus what abuses I might be subject too. I see no reason why I should have to learn about US law and the US legal system, just to use the internet from my computer in the U.K.
    - d3nj4l 6y ago
      Funny thing about Snowden's leaks is that the only meaningful outcome I can see of it is his exile. PRISM itself is still alive and well.
      - petre 6y ago
        Laws forcing companies to keep specific data in certain jurisdictions is another one, as this article is concerned with. The Brits just shot themselves in the foot. I though EU directives had to be ratified and remain in effect, but apparently other UK laws make it possible for Facebook to abuse their position unhampered.
      - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
        Wouldn’t say there’s much funny about it at all. The general populace being confirmed as largely powerless drones with the cognitive abilities of non-playable video game characters was harrowing at best.
    - walshemj 6y ago
      And tbh the security services in the have more oversight than the FANGS do
nl 6y ago
There's a huge difference between sharing between national security services, which are generally out of the reach of everyday warrants and the company moving data so that a local judge can approve a subpoena.

Except the UK and US security agencies share data freely through the Five Eyes alliance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

avianlyric 6y ago

Yes, and as UK citizen I can hold my government to account through the democratic process if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. Notably the Five Eyes alliance used this exact setup to avoid local laws and democratic accountability, I don't want it to be easier for it to continue. I sure as shit can't hold the US government to account.

bonoboTP 6y ago
> if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. How will you know?
- avianlyric 6y ago
  Another Snowden? Change in government? Does it really matter? Point is I help elect the UK government, that means I can change it. Does not apply to the US government, so the US government could put full page ads in the Daily Mail talking about how the abuse the data of UK citizens, and there's diddly squat I could do about it.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    How do you know which party will do what, once in government? You wait for another Snowden and replace them again? What if your preferred nice politician enters power and is briefed on things that make him realize there are more upsides to the project to combat national security issues, and secretly continues things? It's very hard to have popular control over secret operations where you may only sporadically learn about things via whistleblowers once in a while. It's quite different from visible policies like banning or legalizing gay marriage, abortion, raising or lowering taxes or the minimum wage etc.
    - avianlyric 6y ago
      Not really sure why any of that matters. It’s pretty simple, I would rather have my data stored somewhere I have some level of recourse for privacy violations. Even if that recourse is long drawn out and difficult, than somewhere I have no recourse, and never will have any recourse. I really don’t understand why you’re struggling to understand that. Talking about the relative merits of different governments is completely meaningless, if I can only elect and influence one of them. Based on your arguments I should just lie down and let every world government and company trample all over my rights, because it’s all hopeless anyway.
      - bonoboTP 6y ago
        Just don't overestimate the effect of the data location. You have other tools as well, including controlling more tightly what information you share on platforms like Facebook. Now surely, they do track us regardless, shadow profiles, like buttons etc. Also on the other side of things, does it harm me more if a foreign government holds information on me, random Joe, or if my own government holds the same info? Which one cares more about the info and might have incentives to abuse it? What if China has a profile on me? I'll most likely never enter China anyway. I don't live and work in the US, why would them mining my data be so dangerous?
        avianlyric 6y ago
        > Also on the other side of things, does it harm me more if a foreign government holds information on me, random Joe, or if my own government holds the same info? Might be a good question for Kim Dotcom. Regardless of your views on his various business, it hard to explain how the US arresting a non-US citizen outside of the US isn’t a huge and worrying overstep by the US. Now I probably don’t need to worry about a Kim Dotcom style raid on my home, but I see no reason why I should make it easy for the US to do that if they wanted too. And regardless of hypothetical harms by the US government. Privacy is my right, and I’ll defend it. Why on earth should I be comfortable with my data being taken by governments around the world that don’t share my world view? (And the US government certainly doesn’t share my world views). Once again, at least I can hold my government accountable. I notionally understand U.K. law, and the U.K. legal system, and thus what abuses I might be subject too. I see no reason why I should have to learn about US law and the US legal system, just to use the internet from my computer in the U.K.
  - d3nj4l 6y ago
    Funny thing about Snowden's leaks is that the only meaningful outcome I can see of it is his exile. PRISM itself is still alive and well.
    - petre 6y ago
      Laws forcing companies to keep specific data in certain jurisdictions is another one, as this article is concerned with. The Brits just shot themselves in the foot. I though EU directives had to be ratified and remain in effect, but apparently other UK laws make it possible for Facebook to abuse their position unhampered.
    - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
      Wouldn’t say there’s much funny about it at all. The general populace being confirmed as largely powerless drones with the cognitive abilities of non-playable video game characters was harrowing at best.
  - walshemj 6y ago
    And tbh the security services in the have more oversight than the FANGS do

nl 6y ago

There's a huge difference between sharing between national security services, which are generally out of the reach of everyday warrants and the company moving data so that a local judge can approve a subpoena.