6 ms·

In this specific case, my data is being moved to California. Placing it in direct reach of the US government, which has not been historically shy about abusing

In this specific case, my data is being moved to California. Placing it in direct reach of the US government, which has not been historically shy about abusing that kind of reach. I would quite like my data to stay in the UK, where national governments I don't elect or pay taxes to, can't touch it.

nyokodo 6y ago
Except the UK and US security agencies share data freely through the Five Eyes alliance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
- avianlyric 6y ago
  Yes, and as UK citizen I can hold my government to account through the democratic process if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. Notably the Five Eyes alliance used this exact setup to avoid local laws and democratic accountability, I don't want it to be easier for it to continue. I sure as shit can't hold the US government to account.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    > if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. How will you know?
    - avianlyric 6y ago
      Another Snowden? Change in government? Does it really matter? Point is I help elect the UK government, that means I can change it. Does not apply to the US government, so the US government could put full page ads in the Daily Mail talking about how the abuse the data of UK citizens, and there's diddly squat I could do about it.
      - bonoboTP 6y ago
        How do you know which party will do what, once in government? You wait for another Snowden and replace them again? What if your preferred nice politician enters power and is briefed on things that make him realize there are more upsides to the project to combat national security issues, and secretly continues things? It's very hard to have popular control over secret operations where you may only sporadically learn about things via whistleblowers once in a while. It's quite different from visible policies like banning or legalizing gay marriage, abortion, raising or lowering taxes or the minimum wage etc.
        avianlyric 6y ago
        Not really sure why any of that matters. It’s pretty simple, I would rather have my data stored somewhere I have some level of recourse for privacy violations. Even if that recourse is long drawn out and difficult, than somewhere I have no recourse, and never will have any recourse. I really don’t understand why you’re struggling to understand that. Talking about the relative merits of different governments is completely meaningless, if I can only elect and influence one of them. Based on your arguments I should just lie down and let every world government and company trample all over my rights, because it’s all hopeless anyway.
        bonoboTP 6y ago
        Just don't overestimate the effect of the data location. You have other tools as well, including controlling more tightly what information you share on platforms like Facebook. Now surely, they do track us regardless, shadow profiles, like buttons etc. Also on the other side of things, does it harm me more if a foreign government holds information on me, random Joe, or if my own government holds the same info? Which one cares more about the info and might have incentives to abuse it? What if China has a profile on me? I'll most likely never enter China anyway. I don't live and work in the US, why would them mining my data be so dangerous?
        avianlyric 6y ago
- nl 6y ago
  There's a huge difference between sharing between national security services, which are generally out of the reach of everyday warrants and the company moving data so that a local judge can approve a subpoena.
pilsetnieks 6y ago
To be honest, your data was first moved into the hands of an American company by you. You still have 15 days to force them to delete everything under threat of GDPR.
- avianlyric 6y ago
  I don't have an issue giving my data to an American company. I just don't want them to store it in the US without my explicit consent. Equally if you buy a product from a Chinese company in the US, you would expect that product to meet US standards, not Chinese standards.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    >Equally if you buy a product from a Chinese company in the US, you would expect that product to meet US standards, not Chinese standards. Conversely, if China had higher standards, I wouldn't be surprised if the product met the chinese standards. In this case, California standards will meet or exceed those of the UK.
    - avianlyric 6y ago
      > California standards will meet or exceed those of the UK. That's very unlikely. California may be the left-leaning, liberal, forward thinking state of the US. But it's got nothing on the EU/UK when it comes to things like food, safety or privacy standards (except for vehicle emissions where California is ahead, thanks VW). Remember the "left" in US would be considered far "right" (I don't mean neo-Nazi far right, I just mean further right wing than our mainstream right wing parties) in the UK/EU when it comes to social and economic policy.
    - pilsetnieks 6y ago
      It's not about Californian standards. Whatever standards they have, the federal government including all the alphabet agencies can still vacuum up that data. (More so since the Brits aren't American citizens.) That was the gist of the recent ECJ ruling against the so-called "privacy shields."
stickfigure 6y ago
Serious questions: Is the fact that you are friends with John Smith "your" data or "John's" data? What happens if John lives in the US? Is a message you send to John "your" data or "his"? What about his reply? And vice-versa?
- phil294 6y ago
  Data can be copied easily, so I do not see a problem here. Individual-related data such as friend information or messages should belong to the individual and needs to be provided if they ask for it.

nyokodo 6y ago

Except the UK and US security agencies share data freely through the Five Eyes alliance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

avianlyric 6y ago
Yes, and as UK citizen I can hold my government to account through the democratic process if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. Notably the Five Eyes alliance used this exact setup to avoid local laws and democratic accountability, I don't want it to be easier for it to continue. I sure as shit can't hold the US government to account.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  > if they start freely sharing data on UK citizens to others in the Five Eyes alliance. How will you know?
  - avianlyric 6y ago
    Another Snowden? Change in government? Does it really matter? Point is I help elect the UK government, that means I can change it. Does not apply to the US government, so the US government could put full page ads in the Daily Mail talking about how the abuse the data of UK citizens, and there's diddly squat I could do about it.
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      How do you know which party will do what, once in government? You wait for another Snowden and replace them again? What if your preferred nice politician enters power and is briefed on things that make him realize there are more upsides to the project to combat national security issues, and secretly continues things? It's very hard to have popular control over secret operations where you may only sporadically learn about things via whistleblowers once in a while. It's quite different from visible policies like banning or legalizing gay marriage, abortion, raising or lowering taxes or the minimum wage etc.
      - avianlyric 6y ago
        Not really sure why any of that matters. It’s pretty simple, I would rather have my data stored somewhere I have some level of recourse for privacy violations. Even if that recourse is long drawn out and difficult, than somewhere I have no recourse, and never will have any recourse. I really don’t understand why you’re struggling to understand that. Talking about the relative merits of different governments is completely meaningless, if I can only elect and influence one of them. Based on your arguments I should just lie down and let every world government and company trample all over my rights, because it’s all hopeless anyway.
        bonoboTP 6y ago
        Just don't overestimate the effect of the data location. You have other tools as well, including controlling more tightly what information you share on platforms like Facebook. Now surely, they do track us regardless, shadow profiles, like buttons etc. Also on the other side of things, does it harm me more if a foreign government holds information on me, random Joe, or if my own government holds the same info? Which one cares more about the info and might have incentives to abuse it? What if China has a profile on me? I'll most likely never enter China anyway. I don't live and work in the US, why would them mining my data be so dangerous?
        avianlyric 6y ago
nl 6y ago
There's a huge difference between sharing between national security services, which are generally out of the reach of everyday warrants and the company moving data so that a local judge can approve a subpoena.

pilsetnieks 6y ago

To be honest, your data was first moved into the hands of an American company by you. You still have 15 days to force them to delete everything under threat of GDPR.

avianlyric 6y ago
I don't have an issue giving my data to an American company. I just don't want them to store it in the US without my explicit consent. Equally if you buy a product from a Chinese company in the US, you would expect that product to meet US standards, not Chinese standards.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  >Equally if you buy a product from a Chinese company in the US, you would expect that product to meet US standards, not Chinese standards. Conversely, if China had higher standards, I wouldn't be surprised if the product met the chinese standards. In this case, California standards will meet or exceed those of the UK.
  - avianlyric 6y ago
    > California standards will meet or exceed those of the UK. That's very unlikely. California may be the left-leaning, liberal, forward thinking state of the US. But it's got nothing on the EU/UK when it comes to things like food, safety or privacy standards (except for vehicle emissions where California is ahead, thanks VW). Remember the "left" in US would be considered far "right" (I don't mean neo-Nazi far right, I just mean further right wing than our mainstream right wing parties) in the UK/EU when it comes to social and economic policy.
  - pilsetnieks 6y ago
    It's not about Californian standards. Whatever standards they have, the federal government including all the alphabet agencies can still vacuum up that data. (More so since the Brits aren't American citizens.) That was the gist of the recent ECJ ruling against the so-called "privacy shields."

stickfigure 6y ago

Serious questions: Is the fact that you are friends with John Smith "your" data or "John's" data? What happens if John lives in the US? Is a message you send to John "your" data or "his"? What about his reply? And vice-versa?

phil294 6y ago
Data can be copied easily, so I do not see a problem here. Individual-related data such as friend information or messages should belong to the individual and needs to be provided if they ask for it.