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I would agree, except if there is any business in america with near monopolist power, it would be visa, amex, mastercard. I disagree with people arguing that c

by jjeaff 6y ago

I would agree, except if there is any business in america with near monopolist power, it would be visa, amex, mastercard. I disagree with people arguing that companies like Cloudflare should not be allowed to choose their customers. Because there are countless other similar services that can for the most part, do what Cloudflare does. But the 3 big payment processors are an oligopoly and you effectively cannot do business without them. Crypto is a joke when it comes to relative adoption. There are no other options if you plan to run a business today.

wang_li 6y ago
If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience, you’re S.O.L. If you can’t take cards, you can at least take cash or check. And pornhub could set up a site selling bitcoin then add a pointer to their premium payment page referring folks to Bob’s Bitcoin Emporium.
- sterlind 6y ago
  How long will people be able to keep buying Bitcoin though? There's a lot of hoops already. For instance, Cash App (at least recently) required you to upload a photo ID in order to enable transfers. They make it easy to invest in, but hard to use as a currency. I can imagine the US, at least, moving towards a future where Bitcoin is allowed as a financial instrument, but transferring to a wallet you control requires background checks and waiting periods like firearms. Either due to pressure from governments, credit card processors, or both.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  You assume that Visa and MasterCard will just stop there. What if they go after businesses willing to do business with you? They see that blocking you from monetization doesn't work, so they block companies that sell you services from monetization if they continue to sell to you. Or they'll accuse you of money laundering when you switch to bitcoin.
- bawolff 6y ago
  Its really hard to imagine a website that takes cash or cheque. I suppose its possible. At this point pornhub is big enough, that fb, google and twitter all banning it might honestly be less of a threat to them than their payment processors pulling support. Convincing users to type a dns name into the address bar of a very famous website seems easier than convincing the users to mail a cheque (esp. Internationally where people dont use cheques) or pay bitcoin
  - herbst 6y ago
    How about normal banking transactions? Nearly everyone has access to these, surely more than have access to credit cards or checks.
- herbst 6y ago
  > If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience This is reality for millions of people. You need a accepted phone number for all of these services, and not every country/provider is accepted.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience, you’re S.O.L. If you can’t take cards, you can at least take cash or check. The fact that "less convenient way that put off 80% of customers" exists is no excuse for payment processors not being neutral.
- franga2000 6y ago
  Any company that isn't at PH's scale wouldn't be able to survive getting banned from card payments. Taking cash/check isn't possible on the web and Bitcoin poses the kind of barrier to entry that will surely lose you at least half of your customers. Imagine being a rather large consumer electronics web store. You're doing very well, with a good brand loyalty and major part of the market and pride yourself on fast delivery times. Suddenly, your credit card processor drops you because you sold an electronic sex toy that one time and that's against Jesus or whatever. Now the only way to get paid is through bank transfers (takes up to 2 days to go through, fees, pain in the ass) or cash at delivery (huge fee, need to withdraw cash in advance). There are 3 other stores in your market that never made that fatal mistake - who do you think will still buy from you? You're left with only a handful of business customers. Once you downsize because 80% of your revenue is gone, they leave too. F
herbst 6y ago
Gladly this is changing too. I have a webshop in switzerland and only like 10-20% pay with credit card or paypal. This is getting less every year. We have instant payments without heavy fees for both parts as swiss exclusive solution (twint) and online banking (normal eu transactions) are easier than ever with modern banking apps. The main reason to have a credit card around here is using foreign online services. I know many people that simply never got one, because no need. I am sure other countries go similiar paths.
- CaptainZapp 6y ago
  > The main reason to have a credit card around here is using foreign online services. I'd argue that's the much smaller part than cards used for travelling. (At least that used to be the case and will again be the case). Try renting a car, or checking into a hotel without a credit card. Booking an airline ticket with cash may also provide you with extended attention by security personnel.
  - herbst 6y ago
    Well we have access to prepaid/throwaway credit cards that dont need deep verficiation below 10k/year. Most people i know use these for travelling, however booking in Europe or asia usually has a pay in cash option and the cc is only for verfication. And renting cars is kinda unusual if you travel europe or asia.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  How does that work? Is it like an ACH transfer between bank accounts? And what about fraud, are customers able to charge back? If those customers get their account stolen, who eats the loss?
  - herbst 6y ago
    Yes just like that. Takes between a working day and a few hours depending on the bank policy. There basically is no fraud. At least i never was involved in a case. European banking is well protected with different tan systems. As well as insuries usually including bank fraud afaik. Edit:// The only fraud issues i have are with credit cards.

by jjeaff 6y ago

wang_li 6y ago

If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience, you’re S.O.L. If you can’t take cards, you can at least take cash or check. And pornhub could set up a site selling bitcoin then add a pointer to their premium payment page referring folks to Bob’s Bitcoin Emporium.

sterlind 6y ago
How long will people be able to keep buying Bitcoin though? There's a lot of hoops already. For instance, Cash App (at least recently) required you to upload a photo ID in order to enable transfers. They make it easy to invest in, but hard to use as a currency. I can imagine the US, at least, moving towards a future where Bitcoin is allowed as a financial instrument, but transferring to a wallet you control requires background checks and waiting periods like firearms. Either due to pressure from governments, credit card processors, or both.
Mirioron 6y ago
You assume that Visa and MasterCard will just stop there. What if they go after businesses willing to do business with you? They see that blocking you from monetization doesn't work, so they block companies that sell you services from monetization if they continue to sell to you. Or they'll accuse you of money laundering when you switch to bitcoin.
bawolff 6y ago
Its really hard to imagine a website that takes cash or cheque. I suppose its possible. At this point pornhub is big enough, that fb, google and twitter all banning it might honestly be less of a threat to them than their payment processors pulling support. Convincing users to type a dns name into the address bar of a very famous website seems easier than convincing the users to mail a cheque (esp. Internationally where people dont use cheques) or pay bitcoin
- herbst 6y ago
  How about normal banking transactions? Nearly everyone has access to these, surely more than have access to credit cards or checks.
herbst 6y ago
> If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience This is reality for millions of people. You need a accepted phone number for all of these services, and not every country/provider is accepted.
coldtea 6y ago
>If Facebook, Google, and Twitter decide you can’t use their platforms to reach your audience, you’re S.O.L. If you can’t take cards, you can at least take cash or check. The fact that "less convenient way that put off 80% of customers" exists is no excuse for payment processors not being neutral.
franga2000 6y ago
Any company that isn't at PH's scale wouldn't be able to survive getting banned from card payments. Taking cash/check isn't possible on the web and Bitcoin poses the kind of barrier to entry that will surely lose you at least half of your customers. Imagine being a rather large consumer electronics web store. You're doing very well, with a good brand loyalty and major part of the market and pride yourself on fast delivery times. Suddenly, your credit card processor drops you because you sold an electronic sex toy that one time and that's against Jesus or whatever. Now the only way to get paid is through bank transfers (takes up to 2 days to go through, fees, pain in the ass) or cash at delivery (huge fee, need to withdraw cash in advance). There are 3 other stores in your market that never made that fatal mistake - who do you think will still buy from you? You're left with only a handful of business customers. Once you downsize because 80% of your revenue is gone, they leave too. F

herbst 6y ago

Gladly this is changing too. I have a webshop in switzerland and only like 10-20% pay with credit card or paypal. This is getting less every year. We have instant payments without heavy fees for both parts as swiss exclusive solution (twint) and online banking (normal eu transactions) are easier than ever with modern banking apps. The main reason to have a credit card around here is using foreign online services. I know many people that simply never got one, because no need. I am sure other countries go similiar paths.

CaptainZapp 6y ago
> The main reason to have a credit card around here is using foreign online services. I'd argue that's the much smaller part than cards used for travelling. (At least that used to be the case and will again be the case). Try renting a car, or checking into a hotel without a credit card. Booking an airline ticket with cash may also provide you with extended attention by security personnel.
- herbst 6y ago
  Well we have access to prepaid/throwaway credit cards that dont need deep verficiation below 10k/year. Most people i know use these for travelling, however booking in Europe or asia usually has a pay in cash option and the cc is only for verfication. And renting cars is kinda unusual if you travel europe or asia.
jjeaff 6y ago
How does that work? Is it like an ACH transfer between bank accounts? And what about fraud, are customers able to charge back? If those customers get their account stolen, who eats the loss?
- herbst 6y ago
  Yes just like that. Takes between a working day and a few hours depending on the bank policy. There basically is no fraud. At least i never was involved in a case. European banking is well protected with different tan systems. As well as insuries usually including bank fraud afaik. Edit:// The only fraud issues i have are with credit cards.