7 ms·
Doesn't sound much different than getting paid in equity at a startup.
by CamelCaseName 6y ago
Doesn't sound much different than getting paid in equity at a startup.
- pavlov 6y agoThere's centuries worth of legislation about equity. You can still get screwed, but "I'm giving you the right to own shares in this company" means something in the eyes of the law. Getting paid in participation tokens doesn't.
- nthj 6y agoThis is absolutely technically correct. Practically speaking, maybe not so much. http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/standards-ownership-canthecomanytakebackmyvestedshares http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/standards-ownership-canth...
- 29athrowaway 6y agoYou can be employee #2 of a startup, receive a lot of stock early on and then see it dillute to fractions of a cent. Perfectly legal.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y agoThat's what happened to Eduardo Saverin.
- leereeves 6y agoLeading to a lawsuit that was settled with undisclosed terms, but he's reportedly worth $15B now [1], so he must have received quite a lot. 1: https://www.forbes.com/profile/eduardo-saverin/?sh=1b75ae527bd5 https://www.forbes.com/profile/eduardo-saverin/?sh=1b75ae527...
- munk-a 6y agoIt happens to a lot of other folks that aren't currently worth 15B. He made out well but the majority of folks are left with nothing.
- bnjms 6y agoSo is Zuckerberg an actual villain?
- fakedang 6y agoTook you way longer than enough
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y agoWell they state it right in the movie that he deceptively tried to screw Saverin over and his own lawyer in a nutshell said "Settle. Because what do you think a jury will say?"
- verst 6y agoUnsure why you are being downvoted. Perhaps some founders and investors don't want this to be known...
- jimbob45 6y agoI guess no one paid attention during The Social Network because they spelled it out clearly in that movie.
- gabereiser 6y agoHappened to me three times... upvoted to bring light to this as startup finances is tricky for most mortals. Dilution, premium vs standard, cliff, etc.
- busterarm 6y agoWhen I was negotiating my current job, I had a competing offer for around $100k more plus equity but it was essentially Engineer #1 after the technical co-founder. In my negotiations I inquired about said equity and the other founder was vague as hell around all of those important questions that early employees need to ask. The extra $100k wasn't worth it and I'm making the difference in real, liquid equity (and then some) from my current employer.
- gabereiser 6y agoThey know full well what they are doing or they are naive. It’s so important to know the terms before you commit. However, another ace is living in at at-will-to-work state so I can just quit once I realize I was bamboozled. I’ve done this. I’m not proud of it, but my time is mine. I have goals. Help me achieve my goals and I’m all yours to help you achieve yours. Sad to say but there are founders/CEO’s that know engineers are itching for an early-in to a “rocket ship” and will manipulate to get momentum. Don’t buy it. Do your due diligence. Research. Ask about the terms, the equity, the stock, current value? Dilution? Who’s invested? Who has what stake? Who’s on the board? Prove to me it’s a rocket ship... sales? When do you recognize revenue? How? Opportunity pipelines healthy? All of these things are proxy to an engineer yet all of these things effect the engineer joining the company as employee <50.
- rhino369 6y agoSo can any equity holder in a company.
- kmonsen 6y agoMaybe, but if you have RSUs in a FAANG those are your property and pretty safe. They can (must) also be sold when paying tax so pretty liquid asset.
- 29athrowaway 6y agoOnce you accept a RSU grant they are your property once vested. Regardless of where you work.
- kmonsen 6y agoYeah, but for smaller companies there is usually options and preferred ones etc. The upside is a lot larger as well of course.
- icedchai 6y agoThis happened to me back in the 90's. Company 1: The company went bankrupt, founder renamed the company, started a new company with the same name as the original, transferred some assets for pennies on the dollar. It later went public, but collapsed in the dot-com crash. Company 2: Company raised $50 million during the dot-com boom. After 5 or so years, it still did not have much revenue to speak of. After several down rounds, it was eventually was sold to a major corporation for pennies on the dollar. All common stock was worthless. Company 3: Still working on it. There have been several down rounds. All employees got their options re-issued at the lower price after a key employee threatened to walk...
- killtimeatwork 6y ago> Company 1: The company went bankrupt, founder renamed the company, started a new company with the same name as the original, transferred some assets for pennies on the dollar. It later went public, but collapsed in the dot-com crash. Is that legal? It looks like the CEO of the company willingly harmed the company's interest to enrich himself, which is basically fraud.
- icedchai 6y agoMy understanding is that it was done in a legal manner. The majority of the investors were "friends" and had to give sign off. They got a smaller stake in the new venture and promise of larger returns, etc.
- munk-a 6y agoMost areas of the world use at-will employment but I'm specifically familiar with the US and Canada. In either of those you can kill options dead due to expiration clauses[1] - actual equity issuance tends to be rarer due to the tax liabilities around it and, either way, dilution can destroy your value and it's completely legal. Additionally, if you crunch for work, you can be denied promised bonuses[2], be fired before they arrive[3], or just be suddenly downsized and end up needing to eat that bonus while you find another job. Do not work overtime without compensation, no company is your baby and companies have no legal obligation to remember your service. Labour laws are terribly slanted against employees so be very conservative about your expectations from work and never sacrifice your health (mental or physical) due to some B.S. team oriented camaraderie. I work hard at my shop, I really love all the things we've managed to accomplish and I appreciate all the folks I've built them with. But when it comes to money it is good to be incredibly self-interested because no one else will do it for you. 1. You can be put in a position where you're able to exercise your options but you'll be doing so blindly - trading personally held cash for stock and hoping the company doesn't end up tanking. 2. Bonuses are almost never legally promised in practice, so they remain at the grace of the employer. 3. At-will employment laws means that all future implied payments can be retracted if employment is terminated excepting those that are contractually owed.
- errantspark 6y agoI thought that was PascalCase and this is camelCase? Have I been wrong all these years?
- butt_hugger 6y agoYes. CamelCase is such, you're referring to mixedCase. (The first letter is the camel's head.)
- mixedCase 6y agoI would say the same.
- leetcrew 6y agowikipedia, the world's highest authority on matters of nitpicking, says camel case can be either; capitalization of the first letter is unspecified. in practice, I've certainly heard people use camel case to refer to either convention. I hear pascal case a lot when people specifically mean a capitalized first character. wikipedia lists dromedary case as the complement of pascal case, but I've never actually seen this term used IRL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_case
- moron4hire 6y agoThis is something that I miss about forums of yore and sort of hate about HN, Reddit, and their ilk: the deprioritization of a post author's identity. It took me way too long to figure out you were talking about the username of the person you were replying to. I miss being able to scan through a forum's post listing and readily pick out names of posters I recognized after being involved in the site for a while. It was an additional signal of post quality (or lack thereof, depending on the user). Here, the username is hidden in a sentence of status text, on the same visual level of the number of minutes ago the post was made, all of which is rendered in a light grey font. It's clearly intentional, and I can't for the life of me figure out why the forum owners don't want users to be able to build a consistent identity.
- 6y ago
- aspaceman 6y agoIf I got paid in tokens at a startup, I would riot. That’s some “company town” bullshit.
- fastball 6y agoDid you not know about the tokens when you were hired? Why is your first reaction to "riot" instead of just "quit"? Unless it's in your contract, you don't deserve a bonus.
- aspaceman 6y agoBecause I want to. It’s my job, and I’d like to keep it. I take great pride in my position. I do graphics programming myself, and those jobs aren’t exactly numerous. Quitting is for cowards.
- jokethrowaway 6y agoI hope you'll reconsider your position because it greatly benefits your employer. You don't have to be your job. I wish you well.
- Godel_unicode 6y ago> Quitting is for cowards No, quiting is for people who want something they don't have. Loss-aversion is a very powerful force, especially in the hands of senior leadership.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- blackearl 6y agoI can't imagine HR going into it any more than "there is possible bonus compensation" when hiring.
- Godel_unicode 6y agoMy company's HR people and recruiter both spelled out the bonus plans in great detail (cash vs equity, what you're rated on, typical amounts for my incoming level, etc etc). Don't just accept wishy-washy answers, this stuff matters.