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Yes. I email hundreds of thousands of Gmail users each week (yes, double opt in, they all want the mails!) and we immediately delete any user for whom any Gmail

Yes. I email hundreds of thousands of Gmail users each week (yes, double opt in, they all want the mails!) and we immediately delete any user for whom any Gmail error comes up at all in order to keep a solid delivery record with them. Sounds like we might have deleted 80% of our list if we'd sent today..!

com2kid 6y ago
My sanity tests started acting flaky ~3 hours ago, I never thought it was Gmail... Kind of happy I had to do something else and I didn't burn hours investigating.
ta988 6y ago
Hope you have a backup just in case.
- petercooper 6y ago
  Yes, we're unusual in not relying on third parties for list management. We can rollback. Or I might just comment out the 'unsub on hard bounce' code for the rest of the week..! :)
  - Jap2-0 6y ago
    Unsub on two consecutive bounces seems more reasonable to catch flukes (or Gmail going down)?
    - mehrdadn 6y ago
      Logically you'd expect unsubscribe to only act after lots of bounces of this format when the address has been receiving mail fine before. It also seems reasonable not to trust such bounces for the entire domain for a while when this happens to lots of other addresses that have worked fine before. Not that I expect software currently works this way, but it does seem like a common sense thing to code in.
      - petercooper 6y ago
        I mean, it's possible, but you'd need to queue up a day's worth of bounces, do the analysis, and then handle the bounces asynchronously later on to do that. Most systems operate more immediately in isolation on individual addresses than that right now, because such analysis is generally not needed (until today, of course ;-)).
        mehrdadn 6y ago
        Mail agents already queue emails that bounce though; it's a matter of changing the conditions for when you retry and/or unsubscribe. I imagine you can do the analysis in real time too... just look at the bounce and see if it pertains to an email you sent to in the past, and if so, increment some rolling counter for that domain.
    - petercooper 6y ago
      Yes, most likely! That is a common approach for 'soft bounces' in most list management systems (e.g. MailChimp). The problem here is Gmail has been throwing out "NoSuchUser" errors which are an instant unsub in most systems because Gmail takes repeated delivery to non-existing addresses into account for deliverability purposes. I'm extremely paranoid about email hygiene, tiny bounce rates and high delivery rates, so we aggressively unsubscribe troublesome addresses (often to the point of getting reader complaints about it) for many reasons beyond that, however.
      - Jap2-0 6y ago
        Ah, thanks for the explanation.
      - octoberfranklin 6y ago
        > Gmail takes repeated delivery to non-existing addresses into account for deliverability purposes. I think you mean "reputation purposes"? If so, wow, that sucks. Their opaque rules have conditioned their counterparties to punish Google as hard as possible for a screwup.
        MagnumPIG 6y ago
        > Their opaque rules have conditioned their counterparties to punish Google as hard as possible for a screwup. Good for karma, bad for everyone though.
        petercooper 6y ago
        I think you mean "reputation purposes"? That better describes what I was trying to say, yes. Reputation then affecting deliverability. Over 80% of our subscribers use Gmail so to say I'm paranoid about maintaining a good record with them is an understatement ;-) Gmail is a huge weak link for us.
    - octoberfranklin 6y ago
      Their SMTP server being unreachable is a 4xx temporary error. The sender MUST keep trying for at least 24 hours, and 72 hours is recommended. "Gmail going down" would not have caused this problem. Even if all their SMTP servers went offline.
      - organsnyder 6y ago
        Yeah, they would have been better off pulling the (metaphorical) plug—maybe block incoming traffic to port 25 or something—until they had this fixed.
dathinab 6y ago
So new think to do: Quarantine addresses instead of deleting them and if for one provider most addresses fail don't give them another (maybe manually triggered) try later one. (And if no such thing is detected deleted quarantined mail addresses.)
- webbie917 6y ago
  My guess is that how most email service providers handle this - they don't actually delete the email and just have a flag on it - bounced, complain, unsub. This way the list owner can run an export and see all the status code.

com2kid 6y ago

My sanity tests started acting flaky ~3 hours ago, I never thought it was Gmail... Kind of happy I had to do something else and I didn't burn hours investigating.

ta988 6y ago

Hope you have a backup just in case.

petercooper 6y ago
Yes, we're unusual in not relying on third parties for list management. We can rollback. Or I might just comment out the 'unsub on hard bounce' code for the rest of the week..! :)
- Jap2-0 6y ago
  Unsub on two consecutive bounces seems more reasonable to catch flukes (or Gmail going down)?
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    Logically you'd expect unsubscribe to only act after lots of bounces of this format when the address has been receiving mail fine before. It also seems reasonable not to trust such bounces for the entire domain for a while when this happens to lots of other addresses that have worked fine before. Not that I expect software currently works this way, but it does seem like a common sense thing to code in.
    - petercooper 6y ago
      I mean, it's possible, but you'd need to queue up a day's worth of bounces, do the analysis, and then handle the bounces asynchronously later on to do that. Most systems operate more immediately in isolation on individual addresses than that right now, because such analysis is generally not needed (until today, of course ;-)).
      - mehrdadn 6y ago
        Mail agents already queue emails that bounce though; it's a matter of changing the conditions for when you retry and/or unsubscribe. I imagine you can do the analysis in real time too... just look at the bounce and see if it pertains to an email you sent to in the past, and if so, increment some rolling counter for that domain.
  - petercooper 6y ago
    Yes, most likely! That is a common approach for 'soft bounces' in most list management systems (e.g. MailChimp). The problem here is Gmail has been throwing out "NoSuchUser" errors which are an instant unsub in most systems because Gmail takes repeated delivery to non-existing addresses into account for deliverability purposes. I'm extremely paranoid about email hygiene, tiny bounce rates and high delivery rates, so we aggressively unsubscribe troublesome addresses (often to the point of getting reader complaints about it) for many reasons beyond that, however.
    - Jap2-0 6y ago
      Ah, thanks for the explanation.
    - octoberfranklin 6y ago
      > Gmail takes repeated delivery to non-existing addresses into account for deliverability purposes. I think you mean "reputation purposes"? If so, wow, that sucks. Their opaque rules have conditioned their counterparties to punish Google as hard as possible for a screwup.
      - MagnumPIG 6y ago
        > Their opaque rules have conditioned their counterparties to punish Google as hard as possible for a screwup. Good for karma, bad for everyone though.
      - petercooper 6y ago
        I think you mean "reputation purposes"? That better describes what I was trying to say, yes. Reputation then affecting deliverability. Over 80% of our subscribers use Gmail so to say I'm paranoid about maintaining a good record with them is an understatement ;-) Gmail is a huge weak link for us.
  - octoberfranklin 6y ago
    Their SMTP server being unreachable is a 4xx temporary error. The sender MUST keep trying for at least 24 hours, and 72 hours is recommended. "Gmail going down" would not have caused this problem. Even if all their SMTP servers went offline.
    - organsnyder 6y ago
      Yeah, they would have been better off pulling the (metaphorical) plug—maybe block incoming traffic to port 25 or something—until they had this fixed.

dathinab 6y ago

So new think to do: Quarantine addresses instead of deleting them and if for one provider most addresses fail don't give them another (maybe manually triggered) try later one. (And if no such thing is detected deleted quarantined mail addresses.)

webbie917 6y ago
My guess is that how most email service providers handle this - they don't actually delete the email and just have a flag on it - bounced, complain, unsub. This way the list owner can run an export and see all the status code.