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There's a strong argument to be made for police accountability and conduct. But this post seems to complete ignore the actions of demonstrators and the journali

There's a strong argument to be made for police accountability and conduct. But this post seems to complete ignore the actions of demonstrators and the journalists (often self-proclaimed and self-employed) embedded within them. Look at the disparity between Portland and Minneapolis with respect to the rest of the country: New York has 20 times the population yet only half the journalist arrests. Portland has the same number of journalist arrests and New York but only 1/12th the population. These are order-of-magnitude differences, in cities that happened to have widespread rioting. And from a more firsthand perspective, I can say that in my hometown of the Seattle metro I never had witnessed the same level of chaos. Armed demonstrators cordoned off a several blocks of the city and declared it off limits to police, and successfully did so for almost a month. Thus is something I have never witnessed before. Nor have I ever witnessed widespread looting outside of Seattle. I live in Bellevue and stores across the street from single family homes were being looted. I saw people walking out of Bellevue Square mall with stolen stuff in broad daylight as though it was completely normal. Neither of these were things I witnessed during the Michael Brown protests or other demonstrations against police conduct. Both the data and my lived experiences indicate a correlation between more extreme behavior among protestors and more arrests. If we could point to demonstrable differences in the criteria police use for arrests you may have a point. But presently I see little reason to conclude that the disparity in arrests in 2020 are due to policing changes rather than the behavior of demonstrators.

jjeaff 6y ago
I don't have any memory in my lifetime of a credentialed CNN reporter being arrested live on air in front of his camera crew on US soil until this year. I think it is rare that the singular instance of misbehavior is caught on live video feed. I would have to assume that there were many, many similar cases that weren't captured on live cable news.
aesclepius 6y ago
> Both the data and my lived experiences indicate a correlation between more extreme behavior among protestors and more arrests. I think there's a false attribution of 'extreme behavior' with 'protestors' primarily. feel there are a significant number of people who took advantage of the protests to loot and burn and generally cause chaos. It's worth noting that Seattle and Portland, are primarily Caucasian (67% taken from OPCD), (77% taken from US Census Data) respectively. I think the looting can be more attributed to a general anarchy/countercultural movement in the PNW as opposed to protestors regarding BLM. It's definitely something that is more complex and requires more research than an off-the-cuff comment could generate.
- Manfredo_1 6y ago
  This thread seems to be triggering rate limiting. I'm sure plenty of people protested peacefully. But how is that relevant? Regardless of the extent of the overlap between people protesting and people rioting, an increase of the latter is bound to lead to more arrests even if the police's thresholds for making an arrest remain exactly the same. The fact that there were more looters and rioters in the Pacific Northwest because of "general anarchy" is supportive of my claim, if anything: There were more arrests in Portland not because police became more oppressive, it was because there were more looters and rioters.
maybeOneDay 6y ago
I think this comment is dangerous as it legitimises the (clearly documented) widespread arrests of openly marked journalists behaving entirely non aggressively, almost surely because they were pointing cameras at police officers behaving violently. Whether or not you think that the police violence was justified (disclaimer: I don't, at all. I think the psuedo military tactics US police demonstrated were the opposite of sensible de escalation strategy) I'd be surprised if you think that police should have the power to decide whether or not they are filmed.
- Manfredo_1 6y ago
  > I think this comment is dangerous as it legitimises the (clearly documented) widespread arrests of openly marked journalists behaving entirely non aggressively, almost surely because they were pointing cameras at police officers behaving violently. I have yet to see an instance of journalists being arrested for filming. What I have seen are crowds of people refusing to abide by curfews or dispersal orders and getting arrested - journalists are sometimes among them. Each time I see a video of a journalist supposedly being arrested for filming, I also see a bunch of people in the background who aren't filming also being arrested. Anyone can don a jersey that says "press, or a lanyard claiming to be a journalist. The more widespread the notion that these things somehow exempt people from curfews and orders to disperse, the less surprised I am that so many journalists (most of them independent) are getting arrested.
honkycat 6y ago
So because you witnessed a riot for the first time, and it wasn't in one of THOSE neighborhoods, we should ignore these statistics and assume there is no problem with police arresting journalists at an elevated rate? We literally saw a CNN news crew arrested live on air, something completely unprecedented. The majority of BLM protests have been peaceful[0]. I'll just come out and say it: You are not arguing in good faith. You have 0 interest in considering the merits of the police accountability movement. You trying to discredit the movement by pointing to the minority of opportunists who have sprung up. 0: https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/ https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/
- Manfredo_1 6y ago
  This thread is triggering rate limiting: > I'll just come out and say it: You are not arguing in good faith. You have 0 interest in considering the merits of the police accountability movement. You trying to discredit the movement by pointing to the minority of opportunists who have sprung up. No, the people who protest in a productive and lawful manner I genuinely support. They are the victims of opportunists who riot, and make it so that the former cannot peacefully assemble. When a protest turns into a riot, and a curfew or dispersal order is issued it is the opportunists and rioters who deprived the legitimate protestors of their opportunity to speak. That is part of why it's so important to detain and charge rioters: it's not just the direct harm of violence, it's also the indirect harm of inhibiting peaceful demonstration. But back to the original point, referencing a sharp increase in arrests while ignoring a sharp increase in riots is just willful ignorance. That's really what it is. What were the biggest riots we had in 2019? In 2018? Were they even remotely as big as the summer 2020 riots?
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
Same thing in Portland. These are anarchist criminals who should not be tolerated, not protesters. And fake press creds are a running joke. At 11:30p.m., some individuals lit two fires on the north side of the building, including the awning over the main entrance. Again, warnings were issued via loudspeaker that the incident was a riot and that all persons must leave immediately to the south and east, and if they did not they were subject to arrest, citation, and the use of crowd control munitions including, but not limited to, tear gas and impact weapons. Officers had to quickly move in to put out the fires before they could spread. More arrests were made. During at least one arrest, officers had a crowd surround them and hit them with umbrellas and other objects. They were able to pull an arrested individual away. As officers tried to disengage again, people with "press" printed on their outer clothing were seen throwing rocks at them. A rock struck the windshield of their transport vehicle, cracking the glass (photo).

jjeaff 6y ago

I don't have any memory in my lifetime of a credentialed CNN reporter being arrested live on air in front of his camera crew on US soil until this year. I think it is rare that the singular instance of misbehavior is caught on live video feed. I would have to assume that there were many, many similar cases that weren't captured on live cable news.

aesclepius 6y ago

> Both the data and my lived experiences indicate a correlation between more extreme behavior among protestors and more arrests. I think there's a false attribution of 'extreme behavior' with 'protestors' primarily. feel there are a significant number of people who took advantage of the protests to loot and burn and generally cause chaos. It's worth noting that Seattle and Portland, are primarily Caucasian (67% taken from OPCD), (77% taken from US Census Data) respectively. I think the looting can be more attributed to a general anarchy/countercultural movement in the PNW as opposed to protestors regarding BLM. It's definitely something that is more complex and requires more research than an off-the-cuff comment could generate.

Manfredo_1 6y ago
This thread seems to be triggering rate limiting. I'm sure plenty of people protested peacefully. But how is that relevant? Regardless of the extent of the overlap between people protesting and people rioting, an increase of the latter is bound to lead to more arrests even if the police's thresholds for making an arrest remain exactly the same. The fact that there were more looters and rioters in the Pacific Northwest because of "general anarchy" is supportive of my claim, if anything: There were more arrests in Portland not because police became more oppressive, it was because there were more looters and rioters.

maybeOneDay 6y ago

I think this comment is dangerous as it legitimises the (clearly documented) widespread arrests of openly marked journalists behaving entirely non aggressively, almost surely because they were pointing cameras at police officers behaving violently. Whether or not you think that the police violence was justified (disclaimer: I don't, at all. I think the psuedo military tactics US police demonstrated were the opposite of sensible de escalation strategy) I'd be surprised if you think that police should have the power to decide whether or not they are filmed.

Manfredo_1 6y ago
> I think this comment is dangerous as it legitimises the (clearly documented) widespread arrests of openly marked journalists behaving entirely non aggressively, almost surely because they were pointing cameras at police officers behaving violently. I have yet to see an instance of journalists being arrested for filming. What I have seen are crowds of people refusing to abide by curfews or dispersal orders and getting arrested - journalists are sometimes among them. Each time I see a video of a journalist supposedly being arrested for filming, I also see a bunch of people in the background who aren't filming also being arrested. Anyone can don a jersey that says "press, or a lanyard claiming to be a journalist. The more widespread the notion that these things somehow exempt people from curfews and orders to disperse, the less surprised I am that so many journalists (most of them independent) are getting arrested.

honkycat 6y ago

So because you witnessed a riot for the first time, and it wasn't in one of THOSE neighborhoods, we should ignore these statistics and assume there is no problem with police arresting journalists at an elevated rate? We literally saw a CNN news crew arrested live on air, something completely unprecedented. The majority of BLM protests have been peaceful[0]. I'll just come out and say it: You are not arguing in good faith. You have 0 interest in considering the merits of the police accountability movement. You trying to discredit the movement by pointing to the minority of opportunists who have sprung up. 0: https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/ https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/

Manfredo_1 6y ago
This thread is triggering rate limiting: > I'll just come out and say it: You are not arguing in good faith. You have 0 interest in considering the merits of the police accountability movement. You trying to discredit the movement by pointing to the minority of opportunists who have sprung up. No, the people who protest in a productive and lawful manner I genuinely support. They are the victims of opportunists who riot, and make it so that the former cannot peacefully assemble. When a protest turns into a riot, and a curfew or dispersal order is issued it is the opportunists and rioters who deprived the legitimate protestors of their opportunity to speak. That is part of why it's so important to detain and charge rioters: it's not just the direct harm of violence, it's also the indirect harm of inhibiting peaceful demonstration. But back to the original point, referencing a sharp increase in arrests while ignoring a sharp increase in riots is just willful ignorance. That's really what it is. What were the biggest riots we had in 2019? In 2018? Were they even remotely as big as the summer 2020 riots?

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

Same thing in Portland. These are anarchist criminals who should not be tolerated, not protesters. And fake press creds are a running joke. At 11:30p.m., some individuals lit two fires on the north side of the building, including the awning over the main entrance. Again, warnings were issued via loudspeaker that the incident was a riot and that all persons must leave immediately to the south and east, and if they did not they were subject to arrest, citation, and the use of crowd control munitions including, but not limited to, tear gas and impact weapons. Officers had to quickly move in to put out the fires before they could spread. More arrests were made. During at least one arrest, officers had a crowd surround them and hit them with umbrellas and other objects. They were able to pull an arrested individual away. As officers tried to disengage again, people with "press" printed on their outer clothing were seen throwing rocks at them. A rock struck the windshield of their transport vehicle, cracking the glass (photo).