6 ms·

I think the answer is "no". Cow's milk requires far more land & water, and produces far more emissions than other types of "milk". See the chart here: https:

I think the answer is "no". Cow's milk requires far more land & water, and produces far more emissions than other types of "milk". See the chart here: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46654042 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46654042 It seems clear that cows milk has the most environmental impact of any "milk". I've recently switched from cow's milk to almond milk for my cereal, and to an oat-milk based creamer for my coffee, and I don't miss "real" milk/cream at all. My ancestors are rolling over in their graves though, as my grandfather and both my uncles were dairy farmers.

haram_masala 6y ago
Is almond milk an improvement with regards to environmental impact, though? Almonds are a very resource-intensive crop, and in my experience there’s a lot of waste involved when making almond milk.
- drewg123 6y ago
  My understanding is that almond milk is not good, but is far better than cow's milk. Oat milk supposedly has the least impact. See the chart in the article I linked in up-thread.
  - antisthenes 6y ago
    Far better in what sense? Almond "milk" has almost no nutritional content compared to real milk. It's useless for people trying to gain weight/muscle mass. It has ~20% of the protein and fat content of regular whole milk, so at the very minimum it has to be 5x environmentally friendly. In fact it is so nutritionally empty, that it is more fitting to compare it to slightly sugared water, and see if it beats that on environmental record.
    - foopod 6y ago
      I imagine most people trying to gain weight/muscle are not using milk to do it. I think more people drink milk purely out of habit/pleasure.
tobib 6y ago
I recently made my own oat "milk" and it was surprisingly tasty, too. I'd like to switch to it completely but haven't had the time to find the perfect recipe for us. So it's mostly unsweetened soy milk for us. As far as I know, emissions from producing soy milk are far lower than those of dairy but correct me if I'm wrong.
snarf21 6y ago
So you want a world no only with no milk but no butter or cheese or sour cream or yogurt or cream cheese or ice cream or ... ? No thanks, I think we have bigger problems and other ways to solve our environment issues, they are just a lot less popular. Plus, it is kind of silly to think about since it would never happen. Better to tax coal and gas into oblivion.
- drewg123 6y ago
  Surprisingly, cows are worse for the environment than cars. That sounds insane, and it took me a while to believe it myself. But do your own research. I have had dairy-free versions of all of the foods above. Most are really good, though I have to admit that I don't care for the vegan cream cheeses that I've tried.
  - exoji2e 6y ago
    Have you tried this one - I really enjoy it, but maybe I've been vegan for too long to remember what regular cream cheese tastes like... https://violifefoods.com/product/original-flavour-creamy/ https://violifefoods.com/product/original-flavour-creamy/
    - drewg123 6y ago
      Yes, there is some in my fridge right now! Its the best I've had, but still not as good as the real thing to me. In general, I think Violife does the best job with imitation cheeses.
    - bradbeattie 6y ago
      Tofutti's cream cheese does it for me. Likewise can't quite recall the difference, but I enjoy it nonetheless.
- exoji2e 6y ago
  There are quite a lot of delicious vegan alternatives. Some cheeses seem difficult to reinvent as vegan options, but the rest that you mention definitely have great alternatives. Those alternatives were a lot worse 5 years ago. The dairy industry will probably not vanish completely or directly, but when the vegan alternatives are good enough for the majority, combined with a generational shift the dairy industry will start decreasing rapidly. So the notion that "it would never happen" is a bit silly imo. I predict that the global dairy industry will be cut by half in 10 years.
RamshackleJ 6y ago
I went through a phase of drinking milk substitutes but I'm back to milk. The glycemic index of most milk substitutes (oat,soy,almond) are equivalent or greater than a can of coke. Milk substitutes also tend to be really really high in vegetable oils that seem to at least have a troubling correlation with chronic disease. The metrics used for the environmental impact of intensive animal husbandry tend too skew towards the worst case (obese cows on a grain fed diet in a feedlot). There are plenty of dairy farms raising cows with a more sustainable grass-based diet that doesn't release nearly as much methane (Think how gassey you'd be if the only thing you ate was ice-cream?) I like supporting my local dairy farmers, more than I enjoy supporting some multi-national milk-substitute beverage company with a supply chain spanning the globe.
- core-questions 6y ago
  Yep. Turns out that milk is actually really healthy for you, at least if you belong to a population group that evolved the ability to digest lactose. (Lactose-free milk is getting better, though it's still too sweet; A2 milk (w/o the A1 proteins) is an interesting option for some people). I get it, the cows aren't living their most self-actualized life, but I basically sit in a stall all day producing code and documentation, so while I can empathize with them, it doesn't mean I want to pay a bunch more so _they_ get to go outside all day while I'm still stuck here on the git treadmill.
- foopod 6y ago
  I am very interested in this as I only drink alternatives now and although not very much I will often eat foods made from the same ingredients (soy, almond, etc). Glycemic Index - Are we talking about sweetened milk alternatives here? From what I have seen most alternatives come out the same or lower than dairy milk unless they have added sugar. Vegetable Oil - I am sure alternatives contain more vegetable oils, but interested to know what you mean by "really really high". The opposing side is dairy milk containing saturated fat which has it's own implications. Would love to see some studies if you have any handy.
  - RamshackleJ 6y ago
zokier 6y ago
Only if you consider "bulk" consumption of dairy. Make it a luxury good, raise prices by few orders of magnitude and reduce the production accordingly and I'm sure you start finding ways to make it sustainable enough.

haram_masala 6y ago

Is almond milk an improvement with regards to environmental impact, though? Almonds are a very resource-intensive crop, and in my experience there’s a lot of waste involved when making almond milk.

drewg123 6y ago
My understanding is that almond milk is not good, but is far better than cow's milk. Oat milk supposedly has the least impact. See the chart in the article I linked in up-thread.
- antisthenes 6y ago
  Far better in what sense? Almond "milk" has almost no nutritional content compared to real milk. It's useless for people trying to gain weight/muscle mass. It has ~20% of the protein and fat content of regular whole milk, so at the very minimum it has to be 5x environmentally friendly. In fact it is so nutritionally empty, that it is more fitting to compare it to slightly sugared water, and see if it beats that on environmental record.
  - foopod 6y ago
    I imagine most people trying to gain weight/muscle are not using milk to do it. I think more people drink milk purely out of habit/pleasure.

tobib 6y ago

I recently made my own oat "milk" and it was surprisingly tasty, too. I'd like to switch to it completely but haven't had the time to find the perfect recipe for us. So it's mostly unsweetened soy milk for us. As far as I know, emissions from producing soy milk are far lower than those of dairy but correct me if I'm wrong.

snarf21 6y ago

So you want a world no only with no milk but no butter or cheese or sour cream or yogurt or cream cheese or ice cream or ... ? No thanks, I think we have bigger problems and other ways to solve our environment issues, they are just a lot less popular. Plus, it is kind of silly to think about since it would never happen. Better to tax coal and gas into oblivion.

drewg123 6y ago
Surprisingly, cows are worse for the environment than cars. That sounds insane, and it took me a while to believe it myself. But do your own research. I have had dairy-free versions of all of the foods above. Most are really good, though I have to admit that I don't care for the vegan cream cheeses that I've tried.
- exoji2e 6y ago
  Have you tried this one - I really enjoy it, but maybe I've been vegan for too long to remember what regular cream cheese tastes like... https://violifefoods.com/product/original-flavour-creamy/ https://violifefoods.com/product/original-flavour-creamy/
  - drewg123 6y ago
    Yes, there is some in my fridge right now! Its the best I've had, but still not as good as the real thing to me. In general, I think Violife does the best job with imitation cheeses.
  - bradbeattie 6y ago
    Tofutti's cream cheese does it for me. Likewise can't quite recall the difference, but I enjoy it nonetheless.
exoji2e 6y ago
There are quite a lot of delicious vegan alternatives. Some cheeses seem difficult to reinvent as vegan options, but the rest that you mention definitely have great alternatives. Those alternatives were a lot worse 5 years ago. The dairy industry will probably not vanish completely or directly, but when the vegan alternatives are good enough for the majority, combined with a generational shift the dairy industry will start decreasing rapidly. So the notion that "it would never happen" is a bit silly imo. I predict that the global dairy industry will be cut by half in 10 years.

RamshackleJ 6y ago

I went through a phase of drinking milk substitutes but I'm back to milk. The glycemic index of most milk substitutes (oat,soy,almond) are equivalent or greater than a can of coke. Milk substitutes also tend to be really really high in vegetable oils that seem to at least have a troubling correlation with chronic disease. The metrics used for the environmental impact of intensive animal husbandry tend too skew towards the worst case (obese cows on a grain fed diet in a feedlot). There are plenty of dairy farms raising cows with a more sustainable grass-based diet that doesn't release nearly as much methane (Think how gassey you'd be if the only thing you ate was ice-cream?) I like supporting my local dairy farmers, more than I enjoy supporting some multi-national milk-substitute beverage company with a supply chain spanning the globe.

core-questions 6y ago
Yep. Turns out that milk is actually really healthy for you, at least if you belong to a population group that evolved the ability to digest lactose. (Lactose-free milk is getting better, though it's still too sweet; A2 milk (w/o the A1 proteins) is an interesting option for some people). I get it, the cows aren't living their most self-actualized life, but I basically sit in a stall all day producing code and documentation, so while I can empathize with them, it doesn't mean I want to pay a bunch more so _they_ get to go outside all day while I'm still stuck here on the git treadmill.
foopod 6y ago
I am very interested in this as I only drink alternatives now and although not very much I will often eat foods made from the same ingredients (soy, almond, etc). Glycemic Index - Are we talking about sweetened milk alternatives here? From what I have seen most alternatives come out the same or lower than dairy milk unless they have added sugar. Vegetable Oil - I am sure alternatives contain more vegetable oils, but interested to know what you mean by "really really high". The opposing side is dairy milk containing saturated fat which has it's own implications. Would love to see some studies if you have any handy.
- RamshackleJ 6y ago

zokier 6y ago

Only if you consider "bulk" consumption of dairy. Make it a luxury good, raise prices by few orders of magnitude and reduce the production accordingly and I'm sure you start finding ways to make it sustainable enough.