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The EU didn't create its citizens (unlike Apple which created its products); saying that the EU 'owns' their market is quite a big step in assuming control over

by nickff 6y ago

The EU didn't create its citizens (unlike Apple which created its products); saying that the EU 'owns' their market is quite a big step in assuming control over the lives of residents.

avianlyric 6y ago
> quite a big step in assuming control over the lives of residents. Have you heard of laws and governments before? This is exactly what they do, it’s also why democracy is such a big thing. If you’re gonna give that much power to an organisation, you want to make sure you can change it if start going off the rails. > The EU didn't create its citizens (unlike Apple which created its products); It might not have “created” it’s citizens. But it certainly created and maintains the environment that make those citizens wealthy and capable of being a market for Apple.
- nickff 6y ago
  I was just answering the parent's question: "I wonder what those people who keep saying it is Apple's platform they can do what ever they want had to say?" With respect to political authority, I have some rather unpopular views... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Autho...
  - bserge 6y ago
    They're nice views, I entertain myself that way sometimes, too. But they all fall apart at the first meeting with the police, especially when you're the suspect. We're powerless. And that's "just" the police, the military is the actual force of a government and they're absolutely not keen on listening to your philosophies. It's an interesting world, for sure.
- jariel 6y ago
  "do, it’s also why democracy is such a big thing" Voters of France and Netherlands strongly rejected the treaty upon which the EU derives is legitimacy. Referendums were cancelled elsewhere. Ursula von der Leyen did not receive any votes, she wasn't even part of the process, she was an unknown German figure until after the election, when she was plucked from obscurity by actors acting in total opacity, behind closed doors: "Here is your New Leader". I respect much of the commercial facility of the EU, but it's severely lacking in democracy. And while I think a lot of the intentions of the current system are reasonable, a lot of it is not ... and I'm super concerned that totally unelected and unaccountable elite are just going to be smashing their big hands into the economy, with the simplistic populist notions of 'American Economic Imperialism' and a kind of anti-American jealousy just under the surface. It'd be nice to see much more thoughtfulness here, but more importantly, mechanisms to improve European competitiveness.
  - avianlyric 6y ago
    The EU democratic structure is complex, that for sure. But it's hardly undemocratic. The EU has always struggled to explain how it works, why it's structure works the way it does. But all the leaders in the EU are elected, just not always via direct elections. A process that actually isn't that unusual in the world. The US is actually a bit of an outlier, because they have direct elections for almost every position in government, with some slightly mixed results. The EU it's common for countries to select and organise their executive bodies via in-direct elections. For example in the UK our prime minister isn't directly elected, the general public didn't "choose" Boris Johnson. Instead the conservative party did, via its own methodology which it can change any time it does. The current byzantine system exists out of a need to somehow balance the power of the EU as a federal entity, against the sovereignty of the individual nations. With irony come from the fact that the "unelected" leader only exist because it give more power to leaders of the member states, and takes it away from the EU as an organisation independent of its member states and their elected governments.
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      The EU democratic structure is complex, that for sure. But it's hardly undemocratic. I don't really want to start a rehash of the entire Brexit debate we had in the UK, but the EU does have a serious democratic deficit. Ask yourself this simple question: Can a citizen who is governed by the EU meaningfully influence who is doing that governing? In particular, can a large group of citizens affect who holds power within the EU and vote out those individuals they don't want, so any individual office holder has some degree of personal accountability to the electorate? It would take quite a leap to argue that the European Commission, which is where most of the real power still lies in practice, would meet any of those standards. It is debatable whether even the European Parliament does, though it is at least more directly affected by the public vote. For example in the UK our prime minister isn't directly elected, the general public didn't "choose" Boris Johnson. Instead the conservative party did, via its own methodology which it can change any time it does. Our arrangement here in the UK suffers from a similar problem of failing to faithfully represent the will of the electorate. FPTP is a deeply flawed voting system on purely mathematical grounds, and then the mechanics through which the PM and by extension the government come to power once MPs have been elected can be even more distorted. If you don't think it matters that many of our population have little influence over who occupies Number 10, I would respectfully remind you that one of the first things each new PM does is handwrite four letters that could literally cause the end of the world as we know it.
- alacombe 6y ago
  > Have you heard of laws and governments before? This is exactly what they do, it’s also why democracy is such a big thing. The EU has been designed to be as anti-democratic as can be, from its very inception.
- raffraffraff 6y ago
  Don't the citizens create the government in a democracy?
  - Sargos 6y ago
    No, at least not in the semi-democracy systems that are in use today. In most western countries the citizens are allowed to vote on a portion of the people that create and run the government. It varies between countries but even in those nearest a system that resembles democracy the citizens don't have much power over what happens or who most of the people running the system are.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    I suspect a vast amount of policy is made by perma-bureaucrats.
Mountain_Skies 6y ago
Governments do however create corporations, which is an artificial structure that can only exist due to government control over the intersection between the marketplace and the legal system.
- alacombe 6y ago
  I'd be tempted to think the concept of "corporations" pre-dates "government" as we know them today, and these secular traditions were merely enshrined in Law.
  - dariosalvi78 6y ago
    you know what sort of corporations you get without governments? without schools and universities that educate their employers? or the research that has supported ALL the technologies that these companies have exploited? or build ALL the infrastructure (roads, electricity, water...)
    - alacombe 6y ago
      That wasn't the point.
bla3 6y ago
The EU is its citizens. So in a sense the EU did create its citizens.
- nickff 6y ago
  I'm actually an EU citizen, who has never lived there, and never even visited. I did not create the EU; did the EU create me?
  - Fargren 6y ago
    If your parent are EU citizens, and the EU 'is it's citizens' (which is controversial but defensible) then yes, the EU did create you.
    - nickff 6y ago
      None of my family have ever resided in the EU either. I think I understand the argument you're trying to make, but it relies on some rather tortured logic.
      - mnl 6y ago
        I fail to understand how your particular case works. Not having a horse in the race but just a piece of paper you don't care about doesn't help you to make a point, which is what exactly?
        nickff 6y ago
        I was replying to a comment that said: "The EU is its citizens. So in a sense the EU did create its citizens." I tried to show that I was a counter-example.
        bla3 6y ago
        If you're a citizen of the EU, you're a part of the EU. That's almost tautological.
Barrin92 6y ago
Of course the EU created her citizens, do you think European citizenship is some sort of fact of nature? Like people woke up in Europe in a cave and were like "Yeah of course we're cosmopolitan citizens of the United European states" ? All the rules, all the borders, all their values have been created, quite hard earned in fact, with a lot of blood and sweat along the way I might add, even more so than at an Apple smartphone factory if you can believe it.
- alacombe 6y ago
  There is no such thing as "EU citizenship". I am a French citizen, my passport says I am a French citizen, and I do not have a SINGLE legal document mentioning "European citizen".
  - Mijka 6y ago
    Just checked the cover and first page of my french passport (made in 2013). There's 3 lines written in different languages in this order : - Union européenne - République française - Passeport It doesn't says "French citizen" either, just "French Republic" and "European Union" multiple times.
    - alacombe 6y ago
      > It doesn't says "French citizen" either, just "French Republic" and "European Union" multiple times. Yes it does, it's clearly written: "Nationalite: Francaise" NOT: "Nationalite: Francaise, Europeenne"
      - emteycz 6y ago
        That's your nationality, that's different from citizenship. The EU uses the term a lot officially
  - CaptArmchair 6y ago
    How about the passport of the European Union? [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Unio...

by nickff 6y ago

The EU didn't create its citizens (unlike Apple which created its products); saying that the EU 'owns' their market is quite a big step in assuming control over the lives of residents.

avianlyric 6y ago

> quite a big step in assuming control over the lives of residents. Have you heard of laws and governments before? This is exactly what they do, it’s also why democracy is such a big thing. If you’re gonna give that much power to an organisation, you want to make sure you can change it if start going off the rails. > The EU didn't create its citizens (unlike Apple which created its products); It might not have “created” it’s citizens. But it certainly created and maintains the environment that make those citizens wealthy and capable of being a market for Apple.

nickff 6y ago
I was just answering the parent's question: "I wonder what those people who keep saying it is Apple's platform they can do what ever they want had to say?" With respect to political authority, I have some rather unpopular views... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Political_Autho...
- bserge 6y ago
  They're nice views, I entertain myself that way sometimes, too. But they all fall apart at the first meeting with the police, especially when you're the suspect. We're powerless. And that's "just" the police, the military is the actual force of a government and they're absolutely not keen on listening to your philosophies. It's an interesting world, for sure.
jariel 6y ago
"do, it’s also why democracy is such a big thing" Voters of France and Netherlands strongly rejected the treaty upon which the EU derives is legitimacy. Referendums were cancelled elsewhere. Ursula von der Leyen did not receive any votes, she wasn't even part of the process, she was an unknown German figure until after the election, when she was plucked from obscurity by actors acting in total opacity, behind closed doors: "Here is your New Leader". I respect much of the commercial facility of the EU, but it's severely lacking in democracy. And while I think a lot of the intentions of the current system are reasonable, a lot of it is not ... and I'm super concerned that totally unelected and unaccountable elite are just going to be smashing their big hands into the economy, with the simplistic populist notions of 'American Economic Imperialism' and a kind of anti-American jealousy just under the surface. It'd be nice to see much more thoughtfulness here, but more importantly, mechanisms to improve European competitiveness.
- avianlyric 6y ago
  The EU democratic structure is complex, that for sure. But it's hardly undemocratic. The EU has always struggled to explain how it works, why it's structure works the way it does. But all the leaders in the EU are elected, just not always via direct elections. A process that actually isn't that unusual in the world. The US is actually a bit of an outlier, because they have direct elections for almost every position in government, with some slightly mixed results. The EU it's common for countries to select and organise their executive bodies via in-direct elections. For example in the UK our prime minister isn't directly elected, the general public didn't "choose" Boris Johnson. Instead the conservative party did, via its own methodology which it can change any time it does. The current byzantine system exists out of a need to somehow balance the power of the EU as a federal entity, against the sovereignty of the individual nations. With irony come from the fact that the "unelected" leader only exist because it give more power to leaders of the member states, and takes it away from the EU as an organisation independent of its member states and their elected governments.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    The EU democratic structure is complex, that for sure. But it's hardly undemocratic. I don't really want to start a rehash of the entire Brexit debate we had in the UK, but the EU does have a serious democratic deficit. Ask yourself this simple question: Can a citizen who is governed by the EU meaningfully influence who is doing that governing? In particular, can a large group of citizens affect who holds power within the EU and vote out those individuals they don't want, so any individual office holder has some degree of personal accountability to the electorate? It would take quite a leap to argue that the European Commission, which is where most of the real power still lies in practice, would meet any of those standards. It is debatable whether even the European Parliament does, though it is at least more directly affected by the public vote. For example in the UK our prime minister isn't directly elected, the general public didn't "choose" Boris Johnson. Instead the conservative party did, via its own methodology which it can change any time it does. Our arrangement here in the UK suffers from a similar problem of failing to faithfully represent the will of the electorate. FPTP is a deeply flawed voting system on purely mathematical grounds, and then the mechanics through which the PM and by extension the government come to power once MPs have been elected can be even more distorted. If you don't think it matters that many of our population have little influence over who occupies Number 10, I would respectfully remind you that one of the first things each new PM does is handwrite four letters that could literally cause the end of the world as we know it.
alacombe 6y ago
> Have you heard of laws and governments before? This is exactly what they do, it’s also why democracy is such a big thing. The EU has been designed to be as anti-democratic as can be, from its very inception.
raffraffraff 6y ago
Don't the citizens create the government in a democracy?
- Sargos 6y ago
  No, at least not in the semi-democracy systems that are in use today. In most western countries the citizens are allowed to vote on a portion of the people that create and run the government. It varies between countries but even in those nearest a system that resembles democracy the citizens don't have much power over what happens or who most of the people running the system are.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  I suspect a vast amount of policy is made by perma-bureaucrats.

Mountain_Skies 6y ago

Governments do however create corporations, which is an artificial structure that can only exist due to government control over the intersection between the marketplace and the legal system.

alacombe 6y ago
I'd be tempted to think the concept of "corporations" pre-dates "government" as we know them today, and these secular traditions were merely enshrined in Law.
- dariosalvi78 6y ago
  you know what sort of corporations you get without governments? without schools and universities that educate their employers? or the research that has supported ALL the technologies that these companies have exploited? or build ALL the infrastructure (roads, electricity, water...)
  - alacombe 6y ago
    That wasn't the point.

bla3 6y ago

The EU is its citizens. So in a sense the EU did create its citizens.

nickff 6y ago
I'm actually an EU citizen, who has never lived there, and never even visited. I did not create the EU; did the EU create me?
- Fargren 6y ago
  If your parent are EU citizens, and the EU 'is it's citizens' (which is controversial but defensible) then yes, the EU did create you.
  - nickff 6y ago
    None of my family have ever resided in the EU either. I think I understand the argument you're trying to make, but it relies on some rather tortured logic.
    - mnl 6y ago
      I fail to understand how your particular case works. Not having a horse in the race but just a piece of paper you don't care about doesn't help you to make a point, which is what exactly?
      - nickff 6y ago
        I was replying to a comment that said: "The EU is its citizens. So in a sense the EU did create its citizens." I tried to show that I was a counter-example.
        bla3 6y ago
        If you're a citizen of the EU, you're a part of the EU. That's almost tautological.

Barrin92 6y ago

Of course the EU created her citizens, do you think European citizenship is some sort of fact of nature? Like people woke up in Europe in a cave and were like "Yeah of course we're cosmopolitan citizens of the United European states" ? All the rules, all the borders, all their values have been created, quite hard earned in fact, with a lot of blood and sweat along the way I might add, even more so than at an Apple smartphone factory if you can believe it.

alacombe 6y ago
There is no such thing as "EU citizenship". I am a French citizen, my passport says I am a French citizen, and I do not have a SINGLE legal document mentioning "European citizen".
- Mijka 6y ago
  Just checked the cover and first page of my french passport (made in 2013). There's 3 lines written in different languages in this order : - Union européenne - République française - Passeport It doesn't says "French citizen" either, just "French Republic" and "European Union" multiple times.
  - alacombe 6y ago
    > It doesn't says "French citizen" either, just "French Republic" and "European Union" multiple times. Yes it does, it's clearly written: "Nationalite: Francaise" NOT: "Nationalite: Francaise, Europeenne"
    - emteycz 6y ago
      That's your nationality, that's different from citizenship. The EU uses the term a lot officially
- CaptArmchair 6y ago
  How about the passport of the European Union? [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passports_of_the_European_Unio...