7 ms·

"This shift in tone suggests the new version of Firefly might drop characters like Inara, who is basically a prostitute. Instead it’ll probably lean more into

"This shift in tone suggests the new version of Firefly might drop characters like Inara, who is basically a prostitute. Instead it’ll probably lean more into the fun and adventure aspect of the universe’s stories." Jeepers, what a problematic paragraph. There was nothing basic about the character (who was also fun and adventurous) nor about the sex work portrayed in the series. An entire episode centred around it, telling the story of how unregulated is unprotected in sex work. That universe's take was refreshingly insightful and something modern societies could takes lessons from.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
gkoberger 6y ago
Agreed, but I think it's important to point out this is hearsay from a writer of a no-name fan site. Nothing anywhere has ACTUALLY suggested it; they're just trying to fill paragraphs.
aaomidi 6y ago
The hatred so many people have towards sex work is very interesting to me. Yet they consume work of sex work, without shame, and without expecting to pay for it - effectively increasing exploitation. It's very interesting how the more "left" you go, the higher the acceptance towards sex work becomes. I'm quite annoyed how we've decided to increase the barrier of entry for sex work (to be fair, it is slowly coming down), that makes it so only rich people (generally old and white) can create companies that make sex-based products.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  This might be a collective defense mechanism: if it's destigmatized, many people might no longer feel the need to enter long-lasting relationships, and birth rates - already low in Western countries - might decrease even more.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    Birth rates are low because it's expensive as fuck to have a child. Not just the immediate costs and the cost of raising them, but the opportunity cost of having a child is extremely high too. Our modern economic system is to blame for low birth rates, not the prevalence of porn.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      These arguments are not mutually exclusive. It's expensive, it's risky in general (health issues etc.), it's risky for the mother (can be left alone with the child), it's risky for the father (can be left alone and be forced to pay a lot of money each month), it takes time, it takes energy. But before all this happens, you need to have the intention to have a child. Most males wouldn't think about having a child if they're not in a stable relationship. And if all your needs are satisfied, why even bother?
  - waterhouse 6y ago
    I think the people on the margin here, who would enter a long-lasting relationship only because they can't get a prostitute instead, rank highly on the list of people we don't want to encourage to enter long-term relationships or have children.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      I remember at one of my first jobs as IT staff we sometimes had to do some jobs with warehouse workers in another building, very friendly folks but quite blunt. One of them told my colleague: I married because it was cheaper than spending money on girls. At that time this comment put me off as terribly jerky on his part, I was really disgusted. Thirty years later, having observed social dynamics, talking to many people of both genders, I’m no longer that judgmental. Moreover, I think the guy was probably a good husband and good father.
      - waterhouse 6y ago
        Well, it can go well. People develop and change; for example, I'm sure it's possible for a reckless and careless guy to unintentionally get a girl pregnant, and rise to the occasion and make a commitment and end up raising the child very competently. It may not even be rare; evolutionary instincts are a powerful thing, and if you've never seen him in that situation before, you may be surprised. However, we work with likelihoods. Is an irresponsible jerk, or a horndog who doesn't want a long-term relationship, likely to end up as good a parent as someone who says "I planned to have kids and made sure I had a decent career first"? It's possible, but I don't think it's likely, although I haven't seriously looked into it.
- dudul 6y ago
  > The hatred so many people have towards sex work is very interesting to me. Yet they consume work of sex work, without shame, and without expecting to pay for it - effectively increasing exploitation. I don't understand this statement. Are you implying that the people who "hate" sex work are the main consumers of porn/prostitutes? And that they do so without any shame and without paying for it?
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    No I'm implying that essentially everyone consumes porn. Despite the majority (probably majority?) being very against sex work.
    - war1025 6y ago
      > essentially everyone consumes porn I'd be interested in how much of "everyone" this "essentially everyone" actually is. Maybe I'm an outlier, but my appetite for porn pretty well went away once I was in a committed relationship, and especially since I've been married. Could also just be that I'm getting old, but there are an awful lot of people older than me, which would also suggest that "essentially everyone" is not actually "everyone"
      - chrismcb 6y ago
        "essentially everyone" is obviously not "everyone" but it is probably higher than you might think. Somewhere around 80%
    - dudul 6y ago
      I can get behind the idea that a large portion of the population occasionally consumes porn, but I have no idea where you're getting this statement that the majority is very against sex work. And why do you think that they consume it with "no shame"? Or that they don't want to pay for it?
- dogma1138 6y ago
  I’m not sure if it’s hatred towards sex workers they aren’t likely going to have the Reavers either at least not in the same manner as the show yet alone the film. Firefly was really dark with a lot of gore compared to most network shows of the time. Serenity was probably closer to the level of “dark” JW wanted to have in the show mixed with a FU of some sorts to fans by killing so many of the main cast and basically killing any sequel possibility on either screen. The issue Disney has is that Disney+ has no room for anything that isn’t kids friendly because it’s a babysitting as a service first. The Mandalorian goes out it’s way to avoid graphic violence if it wasn’t such a money maker to Disney I don’t think they would’ve it slip into the TV-14 realm for the recent episodes before that it was pretty much TV-PG. Under these circumstances it’s going to be very hard to have Inara on the show. In fact I’m not sure how Fox even got away with a TV-14 rating for FF initially, Germany, Australia, NZ and quite a few other countries have rated it 16/18+. My guess is that Fox got the show rated on the based on the pilot and with how the season progressed they would’ve definitely have had to re-rate the show if it wasn’t canceled. Disney has a real problem on their hands right now they are in possession of so many IPs that they no longer can be kids only or even kids first across the board and they’ll likely have to segregate their streaming services to support that. I would not be surprised if Disney would launch a spin-off brand for their more mature properties sort of like Fox and FX.
  - baumandm 6y ago
    Two things: Why would Joss Whedon take his cancelled network show and pitch it to Universal as a movie, just so he could write a FU to his fans? An alternate take is that without the plot armor normally required by network shows or franchises, JW wrote the story he wanted. Secondly, regarding your final point, Disney has Hulu for mature properties (and the newly announced Star brand for international markets).
6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
The previous sentence provides useful context. They're going for PG, not PG-13. PG-13 is already "Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13," which sex work probaby fits into. PG is even tamer. I don't see it as throwing shade at sex workers, just as saying the original firefly probably couldn't get a PG rating, in part due to Inara's job.
- falcolas 6y ago
  There's a lot in OG Firefly which wouldn't get a PG rating. Killing people nonchalantly. Stabbing people with swords (with blood). Drug references. The enslavement of River Tam (and her appearing au-naturel in the pilot as a minor). Discussion about grenades being hidden in apples. Frank discussions about the horrors of war, and the psychological impact they have. Self mutilation. Torture. A lot of what makes Firefly good is how the characters stand out and do good in a realistically amoral world.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

gkoberger 6y ago

Agreed, but I think it's important to point out this is hearsay from a writer of a no-name fan site. Nothing anywhere has ACTUALLY suggested it; they're just trying to fill paragraphs.

aaomidi 6y ago

The hatred so many people have towards sex work is very interesting to me. Yet they consume work of sex work, without shame, and without expecting to pay for it - effectively increasing exploitation. It's very interesting how the more "left" you go, the higher the acceptance towards sex work becomes. I'm quite annoyed how we've decided to increase the barrier of entry for sex work (to be fair, it is slowly coming down), that makes it so only rich people (generally old and white) can create companies that make sex-based products.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
This might be a collective defense mechanism: if it's destigmatized, many people might no longer feel the need to enter long-lasting relationships, and birth rates - already low in Western countries - might decrease even more.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Birth rates are low because it's expensive as fuck to have a child. Not just the immediate costs and the cost of raising them, but the opportunity cost of having a child is extremely high too. Our modern economic system is to blame for low birth rates, not the prevalence of porn.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    These arguments are not mutually exclusive. It's expensive, it's risky in general (health issues etc.), it's risky for the mother (can be left alone with the child), it's risky for the father (can be left alone and be forced to pay a lot of money each month), it takes time, it takes energy. But before all this happens, you need to have the intention to have a child. Most males wouldn't think about having a child if they're not in a stable relationship. And if all your needs are satisfied, why even bother?
- waterhouse 6y ago
  I think the people on the margin here, who would enter a long-lasting relationship only because they can't get a prostitute instead, rank highly on the list of people we don't want to encourage to enter long-term relationships or have children.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    I remember at one of my first jobs as IT staff we sometimes had to do some jobs with warehouse workers in another building, very friendly folks but quite blunt. One of them told my colleague: I married because it was cheaper than spending money on girls. At that time this comment put me off as terribly jerky on his part, I was really disgusted. Thirty years later, having observed social dynamics, talking to many people of both genders, I’m no longer that judgmental. Moreover, I think the guy was probably a good husband and good father.
    - waterhouse 6y ago
      Well, it can go well. People develop and change; for example, I'm sure it's possible for a reckless and careless guy to unintentionally get a girl pregnant, and rise to the occasion and make a commitment and end up raising the child very competently. It may not even be rare; evolutionary instincts are a powerful thing, and if you've never seen him in that situation before, you may be surprised. However, we work with likelihoods. Is an irresponsible jerk, or a horndog who doesn't want a long-term relationship, likely to end up as good a parent as someone who says "I planned to have kids and made sure I had a decent career first"? It's possible, but I don't think it's likely, although I haven't seriously looked into it.
dudul 6y ago
> The hatred so many people have towards sex work is very interesting to me. Yet they consume work of sex work, without shame, and without expecting to pay for it - effectively increasing exploitation. I don't understand this statement. Are you implying that the people who "hate" sex work are the main consumers of porn/prostitutes? And that they do so without any shame and without paying for it?
- aaomidi 6y ago
  No I'm implying that essentially everyone consumes porn. Despite the majority (probably majority?) being very against sex work.
  - war1025 6y ago
    > essentially everyone consumes porn I'd be interested in how much of "everyone" this "essentially everyone" actually is. Maybe I'm an outlier, but my appetite for porn pretty well went away once I was in a committed relationship, and especially since I've been married. Could also just be that I'm getting old, but there are an awful lot of people older than me, which would also suggest that "essentially everyone" is not actually "everyone"
    - chrismcb 6y ago
      "essentially everyone" is obviously not "everyone" but it is probably higher than you might think. Somewhere around 80%
  - dudul 6y ago
    I can get behind the idea that a large portion of the population occasionally consumes porn, but I have no idea where you're getting this statement that the majority is very against sex work. And why do you think that they consume it with "no shame"? Or that they don't want to pay for it?
dogma1138 6y ago
I’m not sure if it’s hatred towards sex workers they aren’t likely going to have the Reavers either at least not in the same manner as the show yet alone the film. Firefly was really dark with a lot of gore compared to most network shows of the time. Serenity was probably closer to the level of “dark” JW wanted to have in the show mixed with a FU of some sorts to fans by killing so many of the main cast and basically killing any sequel possibility on either screen. The issue Disney has is that Disney+ has no room for anything that isn’t kids friendly because it’s a babysitting as a service first. The Mandalorian goes out it’s way to avoid graphic violence if it wasn’t such a money maker to Disney I don’t think they would’ve it slip into the TV-14 realm for the recent episodes before that it was pretty much TV-PG. Under these circumstances it’s going to be very hard to have Inara on the show. In fact I’m not sure how Fox even got away with a TV-14 rating for FF initially, Germany, Australia, NZ and quite a few other countries have rated it 16/18+. My guess is that Fox got the show rated on the based on the pilot and with how the season progressed they would’ve definitely have had to re-rate the show if it wasn’t canceled. Disney has a real problem on their hands right now they are in possession of so many IPs that they no longer can be kids only or even kids first across the board and they’ll likely have to segregate their streaming services to support that. I would not be surprised if Disney would launch a spin-off brand for their more mature properties sort of like Fox and FX.
- baumandm 6y ago
  Two things: Why would Joss Whedon take his cancelled network show and pitch it to Universal as a movie, just so he could write a FU to his fans? An alternate take is that without the plot armor normally required by network shows or franchises, JW wrote the story he wanted. Secondly, regarding your final point, Disney has Hulu for mature properties (and the newly announced Star brand for international markets).

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

The previous sentence provides useful context. They're going for PG, not PG-13. PG-13 is already "Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13," which sex work probaby fits into. PG is even tamer. I don't see it as throwing shade at sex workers, just as saying the original firefly probably couldn't get a PG rating, in part due to Inara's job.

falcolas 6y ago
There's a lot in OG Firefly which wouldn't get a PG rating. Killing people nonchalantly. Stabbing people with swords (with blood). Drug references. The enslavement of River Tam (and her appearing au-naturel in the pilot as a minor). Discussion about grenades being hidden in apples. Frank discussions about the horrors of war, and the psychological impact they have. Self mutilation. Torture. A lot of what makes Firefly good is how the characters stand out and do good in a realistically amoral world.