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>This is not real-time raytracing on standard SNES hardware, as the title implies. I'm not sure the title implies that. Performant raytracing on SNES hardware

>This is not real-time raytracing on standard SNES hardware, as the title implies. I'm not sure the title implies that. Performant raytracing on SNES hardware would be (to my understanding) pure magic - SNES modes may have been good, but none of them were that good. Just reimplementing raytracing in software on a SNES would also not really be that interesting technically. It can already do any kind of calculation, if slowly. Expansion cards are established ways to improve the SNES's hardware capabilities, as many cartridges did, especially toward the end of the console's lifetime. It's not dishonest to describe using one as doing something "on the SNES" - especially when part of the writeup is about technical challenges interfacing the expansion chip with the actual console.

kbenson 6y ago
It sort of is. The SNES was sold as a specific unit with specific licensed cartridges, and has a well known set of expansion chops shipped in cartridges. I think it's pretty well understood that because of this when someone says "on the SNES" they mean using the existing hardware, possibly plus existing chips shipped at the time. The idea conveyed is that this could have been done at the time if only the expertise and effort were put into it. Sort of like the Commodore demo scene. What they can accomplish with the original hardware is amazing. If they were relying on additional hardware to do so, it's less interesting (but may still be interesting, and an accomplishment, as this is). A more accurate title based on how people might think of this might be "SuperRT – Hacking SNES hardware to support realtime raytracing" (and even then you're going to get people assuming it's all original hardware).
- gecko 6y ago
  The SNES, unlike e.g. the Genesis, had a really heavy history of using add-on chips on carts. In fact, its entire architecture was very specifically designed to permit and encourage this, which is why e.g. the Genesis 32X had to intercept the video out port on the Genesis, but Super Nintendo carts could just bolt-on a SuperFX/Cx3/SA-1/what-have-you and go about their merry way. (Even the the unreleased Nintendo PlayStation would have been able to directly interface with the existing hardware, not do the 32X route of video interception.) Where you may be making a valid point is that I don't know how many people outside the dev scene know how common cart-based extra CPUs were. But doing this feels entirely in the spirit of how development on the SNES actually worked, even at the time--and as someone who's done some SNES development work, I knew from the headline alone roughly how it would necessarily be implemented. The closest analog I can think of would be like seeing a blog post, "calling native Win32 from pure JavaScript," and then being disappointed that ffi was involved. That's literally the only way it could possibly work in the first place, so of course that's what it is going to have to be about.
  - wk_end 6y ago
    I don't think the SNES actually had anything in its design that made extensibility easier on it than the Genesis. This and the Super FX - not to mention the Sega CD or the Sega SVP used in Virtua Racing - etc. all just uploaded video data via the cartridge port and blitted it to the screen console-side. The only reason the 32X needed to do the weird video interception kludge was to get around the Genesis' poor colour depth, and exactly the same thing would be needed if you wanted to do that on the SNES (the SNES had less of a need for that, but...)
- frostburg 6y ago
  Somewhat strangely, a single shogi game used a 32bit 21mhz ARM cpu (significantly more powerful than the baseline SNES hardware) to run the AI on. A large enough number of those in parallel could possibly display a low res real time raytraced scene decently.
mrlala 6y ago
>I'm not sure the title implies that Sure it does.. it says "Realtime Raytracing on the SNES". To any normal person "SNES" means a super nintendo you would have at home.. not one that has expansion cards etc. Anyway cool project but the title is indeed a bit misleading.
- wan23 6y ago
  The expansion chips were in the game cartridges, though. This article is talking about how you could potentially make a game cart that you could plug into an SNES as normal and have it play with real time raytracing.
- yaseer 6y ago
  I don't think it's misleading, given the SNES history. For me the SNES was famous for its expansion chips - I immediately assumed one like the super fx chip that gave it 3d graphics. The title may be skewed towards an audience that knows slightly obscure details of SNES history, rather than misleading the general audience.
  - Igelau 6y ago
    I'm guessing the division comes down to generational ignorance. Commenters on both the oldest fringe and the younger half of the age curve aren't going to remember the big deal Nintendo made about these chips.
- Kranar 6y ago
  The title is no more deceptive for using an expansion chip than a game like Mario Kart is deceptive for calling itself an SNES game even though it also used an expansion chip. Almost any popular SNES game you can think of came with extra technology included in the cartridge and commercials often bragged about it, like the SuperFX chip used by Star Fox. Heck if it weren't for expansion chips, you wouldn't even be able to play Super Mario World or Zelda, since the SNES had no persistent storage, all save games were stored physically on the cartridge itself.
- aeturnum 6y ago

kbenson 6y ago

It sort of is. The SNES was sold as a specific unit with specific licensed cartridges, and has a well known set of expansion chops shipped in cartridges. I think it's pretty well understood that because of this when someone says "on the SNES" they mean using the existing hardware, possibly plus existing chips shipped at the time. The idea conveyed is that this could have been done at the time if only the expertise and effort were put into it. Sort of like the Commodore demo scene. What they can accomplish with the original hardware is amazing. If they were relying on additional hardware to do so, it's less interesting (but may still be interesting, and an accomplishment, as this is). A more accurate title based on how people might think of this might be "SuperRT – Hacking SNES hardware to support realtime raytracing" (and even then you're going to get people assuming it's all original hardware).

gecko 6y ago
The SNES, unlike e.g. the Genesis, had a really heavy history of using add-on chips on carts. In fact, its entire architecture was very specifically designed to permit and encourage this, which is why e.g. the Genesis 32X had to intercept the video out port on the Genesis, but Super Nintendo carts could just bolt-on a SuperFX/Cx3/SA-1/what-have-you and go about their merry way. (Even the the unreleased Nintendo PlayStation would have been able to directly interface with the existing hardware, not do the 32X route of video interception.) Where you may be making a valid point is that I don't know how many people outside the dev scene know how common cart-based extra CPUs were. But doing this feels entirely in the spirit of how development on the SNES actually worked, even at the time--and as someone who's done some SNES development work, I knew from the headline alone roughly how it would necessarily be implemented. The closest analog I can think of would be like seeing a blog post, "calling native Win32 from pure JavaScript," and then being disappointed that ffi was involved. That's literally the only way it could possibly work in the first place, so of course that's what it is going to have to be about.
- wk_end 6y ago
  I don't think the SNES actually had anything in its design that made extensibility easier on it than the Genesis. This and the Super FX - not to mention the Sega CD or the Sega SVP used in Virtua Racing - etc. all just uploaded video data via the cartridge port and blitted it to the screen console-side. The only reason the 32X needed to do the weird video interception kludge was to get around the Genesis' poor colour depth, and exactly the same thing would be needed if you wanted to do that on the SNES (the SNES had less of a need for that, but...)
frostburg 6y ago
Somewhat strangely, a single shogi game used a 32bit 21mhz ARM cpu (significantly more powerful than the baseline SNES hardware) to run the AI on. A large enough number of those in parallel could possibly display a low res real time raytraced scene decently.

mrlala 6y ago

>I'm not sure the title implies that Sure it does.. it says "Realtime Raytracing on the SNES". To any normal person "SNES" means a super nintendo you would have at home.. not one that has expansion cards etc. Anyway cool project but the title is indeed a bit misleading.

wan23 6y ago
The expansion chips were in the game cartridges, though. This article is talking about how you could potentially make a game cart that you could plug into an SNES as normal and have it play with real time raytracing.
yaseer 6y ago
I don't think it's misleading, given the SNES history. For me the SNES was famous for its expansion chips - I immediately assumed one like the super fx chip that gave it 3d graphics. The title may be skewed towards an audience that knows slightly obscure details of SNES history, rather than misleading the general audience.
- Igelau 6y ago
  I'm guessing the division comes down to generational ignorance. Commenters on both the oldest fringe and the younger half of the age curve aren't going to remember the big deal Nintendo made about these chips.
Kranar 6y ago
The title is no more deceptive for using an expansion chip than a game like Mario Kart is deceptive for calling itself an SNES game even though it also used an expansion chip. Almost any popular SNES game you can think of came with extra technology included in the cartridge and commercials often bragged about it, like the SuperFX chip used by Star Fox. Heck if it weren't for expansion chips, you wouldn't even be able to play Super Mario World or Zelda, since the SNES had no persistent storage, all save games were stored physically on the cartridge itself.
aeturnum 6y ago