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You might have some interesting ideas but I am having a hard time following them to see a point you are trying to make. Also you constant usage of the word "du

You might have some interesting ideas but I am having a hard time following them to see a point you are trying to make. Also you constant usage of the word "dumb" or "delusional" confuses, it looks like you apply some personal judgements onto parts of the discussion where it has no reasonable place to be. So far it seems that you are trying to make the point "This is a cognitive shadow of how every animal navigates its environment.". This interpretation seems to me like an attempt by you to fit the data into this non-fitting notion that everything is based on psychomotor processing, because your mind is in love with this idea. And it's a beautiful idea, I agree. But I don't think it's the most truthful one in this space. > (NB. political correctness is here just a regulation on how we socially coordinate). The question was, how specifically is it rooted in motor cortex or psychomotor functions? To explain that you will likely have to widen the definition of "psychomotor" to such an extent that it would lose all its useful meaning. Which is exactly one of the signs, for me personally, that your theory is only making very limited sense with regards to everything we know about brains and minds and behavior of consciousness. That it's a beautiful theory that unfortunately too thin to fit the real world in it. You touched on an interesting thing regarding AGI. In the purely practical sense, I see that a lot of people have taken this apparent rule(or a "universal truth") of making an AGI that says "a mind requires a body to even function or be able to be aware"-thing. People think it means actual bodies. In reality they can very likely be implemented as virtual bodies or just address spaces that can interact with their environment in an adressable way. Thus, a "body" is just a part of the AGI, a computation structured in a certain way to make sure the rest of it works properly. Like a generator in a GAN network. In very simple terms, the machines' bodies can be just avatars in some video game, it would be enough to satisfy the requirement of the aforementioned rule, if game connects all the inputs in the correct way.

mjburgess 6y ago
With "dumb" i wish to debase and defuse the pretentions of the intellect. And I dont mean your intellect. I mean the thing we call "reasoning" towards which we can draw our awareness. This is in some profound way, quite dumb. It seems smart for all sorts of reasons: in particular, it is furnished with concepts that have taken millions of years of cultural evolution to develop. An ape, such as us, absent this cultural context would seem precisely as dumb as it really is: very dumb indeed. We misattribute our reasoning with these concepts for their inherent intelligence. This intelligence, which we might call conceptualization, is not a congitive process. The real intelligence is animal intelligence, it's the bedrock of our cognition which is always outside of it; and cannot be observed from within. > Thus, a "body" is just a part of the AGI, Not at all. A body is just the place the world changes. It's the thing in direct causal contact with the world; whose effect is a kind of painful restructuring. eg., the bike rider learns to ride a bike not by "evolving his cognition", but by the structure of his muscles changing. (Indeed, by his eye swirling differently in its socket). It is this restructuring which is an essential aspect of conceptualization (whose effect we see in consciousness). I strongly suspect that this kind of restructuring is necessarily organic: it is growing differently given the impact of the world. I am open to other systems which can evolve their physical structure in this way, certainly, i do not think sand qualifies. re Political Correctness Correctness = straightness, fit Fit = environment-body "matching" Political = other bodies wanting from me, my wanting from them political correctness = criteria for the fit of my body with other bodies as we want from each other In being a criteria it is a "concept about a concept" and therefore its heavily on the psych-side of psychomotor, ie., it is a kind of regulating mechanism on reasoning (specifically, reasoning about my fit in an environment of people).
- Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
  > This intelligence, which we might call conceptualization, is not a cognitive process. The real intelligence is animal intelligence I can only partially see what you mean exactly by "cognitive" or "animal" (with regards to intelligence), it doesn't seem like you use the words in their precisely common meanings. I also never claimed that intelligence is in its base cognitive. The original claim was that all of the intelligence is based in "ape-ish" motor skills, that it's basically their motor cortex that is just a little more advanced that gives rise to all the behaviors that we call intelligent. This idea would basically mean that a task such as writing and publicizing a great book such as Shakespeare's Hamlet (including accumulating all the life experience required to produce it, and make it being so good) - is "basically a motor skills task". This just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. While it does of course require motor skills like taking a pen and putting the words to the paper, it requires a lot more other complex skills as well that have so little to do with motor intelligence that I don't see any honest reason to put them in the same category. Thus, my comment that your theory requires expanding the concept of "psychomotor" to such extent that the word loses all of its useful meaning. > political correctness = criteria for the fit of my body with other bodies as we want from each other It's just not a good explanation, it loses 90% of all of the intricacies. Try using it to explain it to someone who doesn't know what political correctness is- it doesn't do the job.
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    > cognitive I just mean any system of inference over propositions, or anything which looks like it . We are told our frontal lobe is the most unique aspect of our brains: not true! Our motor cortex is. We are the only animal which learns almost all skills after-birth, via our significant and adaptable motor cortex. > Try using it to explain it to someone Yes, concepts need to be converted/reduced to propositional (and then linguistic) forms in order to be cognized and then to be communicated. You can't really acquire a novel basic concept via communication, but you can acquire metaconcepts (like criteria for things) which are just combinations of basic concepts you have already learnt (ie., motor concepts). I'm not saying that there is no propositional content to concepts, ie., that they fail in being instances of some abstract Form. I am saying, rather, what they are; and how we acquire them. I have significant doubts that the world can be conceptualised by mere cognition, ie., that the contents of an inferential process can be arrived at via an inferential process. I think this is an illusion: and it is apparent with machines. There is no mechanism for their understanding what they are processing. We aren't aware, i'd say, at all, of how we actually conceptualise the world. All we're aware of, as far as our intelligence goes, is inference(/cognition). (Though many greats have attributed mysterious immediate insights to the divine: rather it is just their actual intelligence). I think that sets us up for a highly misleading paradigm of intelligence (cf. Cartesian dualism, etc. )

mjburgess 6y ago

With "dumb" i wish to debase and defuse the pretentions of the intellect. And I dont mean your intellect. I mean the thing we call "reasoning" towards which we can draw our awareness. This is in some profound way, quite dumb. It seems smart for all sorts of reasons: in particular, it is furnished with concepts that have taken millions of years of cultural evolution to develop. An ape, such as us, absent this cultural context would seem precisely as dumb as it really is: very dumb indeed. We misattribute our reasoning with these concepts for their inherent intelligence. This intelligence, which we might call conceptualization, is not a congitive process. The real intelligence is animal intelligence, it's the bedrock of our cognition which is always outside of it; and cannot be observed from within. > Thus, a "body" is just a part of the AGI, Not at all. A body is just the place the world changes. It's the thing in direct causal contact with the world; whose effect is a kind of painful restructuring. eg., the bike rider learns to ride a bike not by "evolving his cognition", but by the structure of his muscles changing. (Indeed, by his eye swirling differently in its socket). It is this restructuring which is an essential aspect of conceptualization (whose effect we see in consciousness). I strongly suspect that this kind of restructuring is necessarily organic: it is growing differently given the impact of the world. I am open to other systems which can evolve their physical structure in this way, certainly, i do not think sand qualifies. re Political Correctness Correctness = straightness, fit Fit = environment-body "matching" Political = other bodies wanting from me, my wanting from them political correctness = criteria for the fit of my body with other bodies as we want from each other In being a criteria it is a "concept about a concept" and therefore its heavily on the psych-side of psychomotor, ie., it is a kind of regulating mechanism on reasoning (specifically, reasoning about my fit in an environment of people).

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
> This intelligence, which we might call conceptualization, is not a cognitive process. The real intelligence is animal intelligence I can only partially see what you mean exactly by "cognitive" or "animal" (with regards to intelligence), it doesn't seem like you use the words in their precisely common meanings. I also never claimed that intelligence is in its base cognitive. The original claim was that all of the intelligence is based in "ape-ish" motor skills, that it's basically their motor cortex that is just a little more advanced that gives rise to all the behaviors that we call intelligent. This idea would basically mean that a task such as writing and publicizing a great book such as Shakespeare's Hamlet (including accumulating all the life experience required to produce it, and make it being so good) - is "basically a motor skills task". This just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. While it does of course require motor skills like taking a pen and putting the words to the paper, it requires a lot more other complex skills as well that have so little to do with motor intelligence that I don't see any honest reason to put them in the same category. Thus, my comment that your theory requires expanding the concept of "psychomotor" to such extent that the word loses all of its useful meaning. > political correctness = criteria for the fit of my body with other bodies as we want from each other It's just not a good explanation, it loses 90% of all of the intricacies. Try using it to explain it to someone who doesn't know what political correctness is- it doesn't do the job.
- mjburgess 6y ago
  > cognitive I just mean any system of inference over propositions, or anything which looks like it . We are told our frontal lobe is the most unique aspect of our brains: not true! Our motor cortex is. We are the only animal which learns almost all skills after-birth, via our significant and adaptable motor cortex. > Try using it to explain it to someone Yes, concepts need to be converted/reduced to propositional (and then linguistic) forms in order to be cognized and then to be communicated. You can't really acquire a novel basic concept via communication, but you can acquire metaconcepts (like criteria for things) which are just combinations of basic concepts you have already learnt (ie., motor concepts). I'm not saying that there is no propositional content to concepts, ie., that they fail in being instances of some abstract Form. I am saying, rather, what they are; and how we acquire them. I have significant doubts that the world can be conceptualised by mere cognition, ie., that the contents of an inferential process can be arrived at via an inferential process. I think this is an illusion: and it is apparent with machines. There is no mechanism for their understanding what they are processing. We aren't aware, i'd say, at all, of how we actually conceptualise the world. All we're aware of, as far as our intelligence goes, is inference(/cognition). (Though many greats have attributed mysterious immediate insights to the divine: rather it is just their actual intelligence). I think that sets us up for a highly misleading paradigm of intelligence (cf. Cartesian dualism, etc. )