5 ms·

The real state I wonder about is Illinois. Who the hell wants to live in Illinois? Both the state income tax and property tax is absurd and you can easily cross

The real state I wonder about is Illinois. Who the hell wants to live in Illinois? Both the state income tax and property tax is absurd and you can easily cross state lines to somewhere cheaper with pretty much the same scenery.

paloaltokid 6y ago
Have you never been to Chicago? Pretty nice town.
- almost_usual 6y ago
  Yes, and Cook County has a property tax rate that is nearly 2x San Francisco county.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
    But income taxes are lower. A $200k income has an effective state tax rate of 7.67% in California and 4.95% in Illinois (IL has a flat tax rate). And considering real estate is much cheaper in Chicago, a home that's half as much would offer the same standard of living, when compared to SF. So you could pay the same amount in property taxes, and less income tax.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      IL tax rates will have to go to pay for all of the debt for their defined benefit pensions and retiree healthcare. CA also has that problem, but not to the degree IL has. IL has fewer high income earners to spread the pain around, and higher debt amounts overall. It’s part of the reason why land is so much cheaper in IL.
      - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
        Illinois voters defeated an initiative to implement graduated income tax in the November 2020 election: https://ballotpedia.org/Illinois_Allow_for_Graduated_Income_Tax_Amendment_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/Illinois_Allow_for_Graduated_Income_... Agreed the state has financial issues, but it remains unclear if the upper middle class will bear the responsibility.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        Anyone that has money and lack of political power. Middle class is a vague term, but currently, a flat % income tax takes evenly from rich and poor, so it benefits the rich. What will happen now is that IL will increase then 5% income tax to 6% or whatever they have to go meet their needs, and so it will continue to benefit the rich. Until it gets to a point where the lower income people realize they can make the rich pay more, and vote for marginal income tax rates. That’s when the screws will start getting turned on higher income people. Once that happens, I would assume anyone with disposable income will have their incomes taxes go up. It only failed 47 to 53 this year, so I imagine it will be soon, but I predict the marginal income tax rates will ratchet up even at a “middle” class household income of $80k+. And then as more rich people leave, the more the marginal income tax brackets have to be expanded and/or percentages increased. In any case, there’s no relief until sufficient benefit recipients die, and that stupid COLA is no longer in effect. That is one of the most egregious examples of corruption I have seen. Anyone with high school math can see a 3% annual COLA increase would destroy you unless you had the power to print money. I’m really curious what this map looks like for last decade instead of just 2017: https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iPUtINXvmFd4/v0/800x-1.jpg https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iPUtINXvmFd... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-05/even-before-covid-2-600-people-a-week-were-leaving-new-york-city https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-05/even-befo...
        JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
        Only the extremely wealthy would leave. An average person does not move their state of residence just to save $1,000 on state taxes. That could be disruptive: leaving family and friends, your job, etc. All to save a grand.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        It’s more like $10k to $20k (and ever increasing) per year for dual income professional households compared to a no income tax state like Washington. Over a career of 20 to 30 years, that adds up to a substantial amount of savings. Basically, the families earning $100k+ would be saving 5%+ of state income tax and at least $5k+ in extra property taxes compared to a non debt burdened state and tolls and all the various other taxes that need to be collected to pay for the compounded debt of pensions and whatnot.
  - francisofascii 6y ago
    Which is a good thing. Higher property taxes leads to lower, more realistic real estate prices for new buyers. See Prop 13.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      It’s only a good thing if higher property taxes lead to investments in government services and infrastructure. It’s a bad thing if higher property taxes go towards paying down disproportionate levels of debt.
    - selectodude 6y ago
      The issue with Chicagoland isn't the property taxes currently, it's the uncertainty on the guaranteed raises that will occur. Sure, you can buy a $650,000 house in the city and pay $13k/yr in property tax, but that might go up to $20k/yr at which point you're underwater on your mortgage and spending an extra $800/mo. I have the money to buy and the day the city files for bankruptcy and restructures their pensions is the day I purchase. But not a second sooner.
  - mrep 6y ago
    But from a quick google search result [0], price per square foot is 4 time as expensive in SF versus chicago. [0]: https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-Estate-Reports/2020/07/07/how-much-residential-space-250000-can-buy-in-the-100-largest-u-s-cities/ https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-Estate-Reports/2020/07/07...
- bluedino 6y ago
  Nice to visit, wouldn't want to live there. Did I mention it's the murder capital of the United States?
  - paloaltokid 6y ago
    Meh. Yes, sure, by statistics. But those rates come from neighborhoods that most likely don't have a lot of six-figure salary tech workers in them.
  - selectodude 6y ago
    It has a lot of murders but the QoL crimes seem to be significantly less severe than they are in San Francisco.
  - combatentropy 6y ago
    It is the country's third largest city. So by volume it may well be the murder capital. But the murder rate places it like 10th, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
- jedberg 6y ago
  It's nice from May to October. I almost died when I visited in February.
  - paloaltokid 6y ago
    You're not living unless the winter weather almost kills you when you're walking the dog!
alexhutcheson 6y ago
The population of Illinois peaked in 2009 and has been declining for the past decade.
robotnikman 6y ago
I grew up there, and still have nostalgia for it. I miss the nature and seasons, I remember fall being beautiful. I miss the history that could be found and the unique architecture of the old buildings you could find downtown. But I would not move back, the cost of living is expensive, and the state has not been doing well financially. I think if I were to move again it would be to Washington, I love rainy weather.
jartelt 6y ago
Sure for the more rural parts of IL, you could just as easily live in WI, IN, or IA. A small town in one of those states is not that much different than one in a different state. But if you want to live in Chicago or the Chicago suburbs, moving to Milwaukee, Madison, or Indianapolis is not the same. Those cities are smaller and won't have the same job opportunities. You also have a major airport in O'hare which allows for easy travel, while airports in WI and IN are smaller with fewer direct flights. Plus IL has Northwestern and the University of Illinois, which are top tier research universities supplying a lot of jobs. UW-Madison is also a good school, but not in the same league and the past governor in the WI was not good for their university system. You can also take a look at how WI and IA handle the COVID situation and it tells you a little about the state governments in those states.
phil21 6y ago
Illinois is pretty rough financially, I agree. But it's home to one of the three cities you can realistically live in and call a city in the US. As in no car ownership required, walkable neighborhoods that you never need to leave very often as all your needs are met, etc. This is exceedingly rare in the US, almost non-existent. So for now, I'll stick with Chicago. Should I move, I completely agree the IL suburbs are completely pointless - I can get the same quality of life cheaper almost anywhere in the US. A suburb is a suburb after all, so things like tax rates and property value are all you really need to make much of a decision on.
- Dracophoenix 6y ago
  I'm assuming the other two are New York and Boston?
  - phil21 6y ago
    A bit of hyperbole in that comment, but yes that was my thought while writing it. I suppose you could make the case for a few more eastern seaboard cities as well.

paloaltokid 6y ago

Have you never been to Chicago? Pretty nice town.

almost_usual 6y ago
Yes, and Cook County has a property tax rate that is nearly 2x San Francisco county.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  But income taxes are lower. A $200k income has an effective state tax rate of 7.67% in California and 4.95% in Illinois (IL has a flat tax rate). And considering real estate is much cheaper in Chicago, a home that's half as much would offer the same standard of living, when compared to SF. So you could pay the same amount in property taxes, and less income tax.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    IL tax rates will have to go to pay for all of the debt for their defined benefit pensions and retiree healthcare. CA also has that problem, but not to the degree IL has. IL has fewer high income earners to spread the pain around, and higher debt amounts overall. It’s part of the reason why land is so much cheaper in IL.
    - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
      Illinois voters defeated an initiative to implement graduated income tax in the November 2020 election: https://ballotpedia.org/Illinois_Allow_for_Graduated_Income_Tax_Amendment_(2020) https://ballotpedia.org/Illinois_Allow_for_Graduated_Income_... Agreed the state has financial issues, but it remains unclear if the upper middle class will bear the responsibility.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        Anyone that has money and lack of political power. Middle class is a vague term, but currently, a flat % income tax takes evenly from rich and poor, so it benefits the rich. What will happen now is that IL will increase then 5% income tax to 6% or whatever they have to go meet their needs, and so it will continue to benefit the rich. Until it gets to a point where the lower income people realize they can make the rich pay more, and vote for marginal income tax rates. That’s when the screws will start getting turned on higher income people. Once that happens, I would assume anyone with disposable income will have their incomes taxes go up. It only failed 47 to 53 this year, so I imagine it will be soon, but I predict the marginal income tax rates will ratchet up even at a “middle” class household income of $80k+. And then as more rich people leave, the more the marginal income tax brackets have to be expanded and/or percentages increased. In any case, there’s no relief until sufficient benefit recipients die, and that stupid COLA is no longer in effect. That is one of the most egregious examples of corruption I have seen. Anyone with high school math can see a 3% annual COLA increase would destroy you unless you had the power to print money. I’m really curious what this map looks like for last decade instead of just 2017: https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iPUtINXvmFd4/v0/800x-1.jpg https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iPUtINXvmFd... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-05/even-before-covid-2-600-people-a-week-were-leaving-new-york-city https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-05/even-befo...
        JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
        Only the extremely wealthy would leave. An average person does not move their state of residence just to save $1,000 on state taxes. That could be disruptive: leaving family and friends, your job, etc. All to save a grand.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        It’s more like $10k to $20k (and ever increasing) per year for dual income professional households compared to a no income tax state like Washington. Over a career of 20 to 30 years, that adds up to a substantial amount of savings. Basically, the families earning $100k+ would be saving 5%+ of state income tax and at least $5k+ in extra property taxes compared to a non debt burdened state and tolls and all the various other taxes that need to be collected to pay for the compounded debt of pensions and whatnot.
- francisofascii 6y ago
  Which is a good thing. Higher property taxes leads to lower, more realistic real estate prices for new buyers. See Prop 13.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    It’s only a good thing if higher property taxes lead to investments in government services and infrastructure. It’s a bad thing if higher property taxes go towards paying down disproportionate levels of debt.
  - selectodude 6y ago
    The issue with Chicagoland isn't the property taxes currently, it's the uncertainty on the guaranteed raises that will occur. Sure, you can buy a $650,000 house in the city and pay $13k/yr in property tax, but that might go up to $20k/yr at which point you're underwater on your mortgage and spending an extra $800/mo. I have the money to buy and the day the city files for bankruptcy and restructures their pensions is the day I purchase. But not a second sooner.
- mrep 6y ago
  But from a quick google search result [0], price per square foot is 4 time as expensive in SF versus chicago. [0]: https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-Estate-Reports/2020/07/07/how-much-residential-space-250000-can-buy-in-the-100-largest-u-s-cities/ https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-Estate-Reports/2020/07/07...
bluedino 6y ago
Nice to visit, wouldn't want to live there. Did I mention it's the murder capital of the United States?
- paloaltokid 6y ago
  Meh. Yes, sure, by statistics. But those rates come from neighborhoods that most likely don't have a lot of six-figure salary tech workers in them.
- selectodude 6y ago
  It has a lot of murders but the QoL crimes seem to be significantly less severe than they are in San Francisco.
- combatentropy 6y ago
  It is the country's third largest city. So by volume it may well be the murder capital. But the murder rate places it like 10th, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
jedberg 6y ago
It's nice from May to October. I almost died when I visited in February.
- paloaltokid 6y ago
  You're not living unless the winter weather almost kills you when you're walking the dog!

alexhutcheson 6y ago

The population of Illinois peaked in 2009 and has been declining for the past decade.

robotnikman 6y ago

I grew up there, and still have nostalgia for it. I miss the nature and seasons, I remember fall being beautiful. I miss the history that could be found and the unique architecture of the old buildings you could find downtown. But I would not move back, the cost of living is expensive, and the state has not been doing well financially. I think if I were to move again it would be to Washington, I love rainy weather.

jartelt 6y ago

Sure for the more rural parts of IL, you could just as easily live in WI, IN, or IA. A small town in one of those states is not that much different than one in a different state. But if you want to live in Chicago or the Chicago suburbs, moving to Milwaukee, Madison, or Indianapolis is not the same. Those cities are smaller and won't have the same job opportunities. You also have a major airport in O'hare which allows for easy travel, while airports in WI and IN are smaller with fewer direct flights. Plus IL has Northwestern and the University of Illinois, which are top tier research universities supplying a lot of jobs. UW-Madison is also a good school, but not in the same league and the past governor in the WI was not good for their university system. You can also take a look at how WI and IA handle the COVID situation and it tells you a little about the state governments in those states.

phil21 6y ago

Illinois is pretty rough financially, I agree. But it's home to one of the three cities you can realistically live in and call a city in the US. As in no car ownership required, walkable neighborhoods that you never need to leave very often as all your needs are met, etc. This is exceedingly rare in the US, almost non-existent. So for now, I'll stick with Chicago. Should I move, I completely agree the IL suburbs are completely pointless - I can get the same quality of life cheaper almost anywhere in the US. A suburb is a suburb after all, so things like tax rates and property value are all you really need to make much of a decision on.

Dracophoenix 6y ago
I'm assuming the other two are New York and Boston?
- phil21 6y ago
  A bit of hyperbole in that comment, but yes that was my thought while writing it. I suppose you could make the case for a few more eastern seaboard cities as well.